You may have noticed we changed class talent trees for Cataclysm. We changed not just the trees themselves, as you might expect for an expansion, but the entire structure of the trees and the way you choose talents. Now that the Cataclysm model has been in play for several months, the team has been discussing what we like and don?t like about it, and I thought that might be of interest to some of you. As always with this series, this is design rumination, not a list of upcoming changes.
What Worked Well

The talent trees are simpler now, but without losing a lot of depth. Most of what we cut were passive talents that everyone took anyway, or really lame talents that did nothing.
Choosing your specialization at level 10 and not having to delay playing your character the way you want feels great. You can play your shaman as Elemental or Enhancement with the tools and bonuses to make either work.
Specs within a class feel different. This was a big challenge for the DPS warriors, warlocks, hunters, and rogues in particular. Nowadays those specs have different rotations, different strengths and utility, and a different flavor overall.
Mastery integrates into the trees well. We can delay the complexity until higher level, and we?re at the point now where it?s a competitive stat for many specs (though to be fair, not all yet).
There are some legitimate hard choices for many of the specs. Usually these come in two varieties: which talent you want before you can advance to the next tier of the tree, or where you want to spend those remaining talents after you?ve hit the bottom of the tree.
At the risk of catching flak for this statement, I feel that the game is as balanced as it?s ever been. When you look back at the vanilla or Burning Crusade days there were many specs that were just jokes and the difference between the highest performing and worst performing specs was on the order of 30-50% or more. Nowadays, players worry about 5-10% differences. Those are differences we still want to fix, absolutely, but we?ve come a long way. The talent trees have helped us do that.

What Didn?t Work

I?ll admit there are still a few clunker talents -- those that are undertuned or just not interesting enough. There aren?t many though, and they?re relatively easy to replace.
On the other hand, the talent trees still have traps for the unwary. For example, a Fury build that skips over Raging Blow is making a serious mistake. That may seem obvious to current players but it?s the kind of thing someone returning to the game after a hiatus might not understand immediately. (After all, you didn?t robotically take Ghostly Strike just because it was a gold medal ability.) While there is something to be said for safe choices, it would also be nice if the talents we expected players to have were talents they always had.
Some players miss true hybrid builds. (Hybrid in this context means spending near evenly in two trees -- I?m not talking about the more common use of ?hybrid? as a tank or healing class.) To be fair, these builds were either not very competitive or were just cherry picking a few powerful talents in order to create something that was likely overpowered, especially in PvP. In other words, the reality of the hybrid build never lived up to the myth. But it?s fair to say that it?s impossible now to have a hybrid build, and we understand some players want them back.
I said above that there are tough choices within the trees of many specs, but there aren?t very many of them within each spec. Often it can come down to where to spend those last 1-3 talent points. While that was our goal, it would be even more exciting if there were more of those hard decisions. Hard decisions can be painful when you?re faced with excluding an ability or mechanic that?s fun to have. But overall we think hard, exclusive decisions are a good thing. They encourage experimentation and discussion and give players a chance to try out different things, all of which can help keep them engaged.
Even worse, one potential place to spend those points is in the first two tiers of the other trees of your class, yet those talents are extremely design-constrained. First, they have to be attractive to the main spec using that tree, so chances are you?re not going to find much interest in the healing tree if you?re a damage dealer (unless you want to improve your limited healing). Second, those top-tier talents can?t affect higher level abilities since the talents are available at level 10. Finally, because those talents are available early, they should really be relatively simple to understand for new or returning players. You don?t want to put complex procs with lots of exceptions and internal cooldowns that high in the tree. All of those reasons mean that it?s rare that there?s a true game-changing talent available in those first two tiers. This would be totally broken, but imagine you could spend those last 10 points anywhere in another tree. Much more exciting, huh?
This is a personal pet peeve, but I don?t like the talents that have a 33/66/100% chance to do what you want them to do. That?s just an awkward way of making a valuable talent cost more than one point. The new Cataclysm talent tree design didn?t cause this problem, but it didn?t fix it either.

The Future
This is the part where I?d really love to share our ideas for how we could address these problems, but some discussions are still a little too rough even for the dev watercooler. When we?re a little farther along, we?ll be able to share more. In the meantime, this is a great topic for further discussion. Players like to evaluate the talents in their particular class, but it?s also useful to evaluate the talent tree system as a whole. It?s an iconic design for World of Warcraft for sure, but that doesn?t mean it can?t be improved.

Greg ?Ghostcrawler? Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He once spent a summer capturing live radioactive alligators. True story.

Vault_News posted:

---

We are out of touch, have no clue what we are doing and actually believe the crap we tell people.

---

Ferrydust posted:

---

While there is something to be said for safe choices, it would also be nice if the talents we expected players to have were talents they always had.

That's the part that worries me.

---

-Peo- posted:

---

Vault_News posted:

---

We are out of touch, have no clue what we are doing and actually believe the crap we tell people.

---

Fixed.

---

Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:

---

Nowadays,
players worry about 5-10% differences. Those are differences we still
want to fix, absolutely, but we?ve come a long way.

You want to fix 5-10% differences?! I think this is what bothers me most about WoW right now. The excessive seemingly minor changes and tweaks for the same of "normalization".

---

Arunne posted:

---

To be fair, these builds [hybrids] were either not very competitive or were just cherry picking a few powerful talents in order to create something that was likely overpowered, especially in PvP.


This pretty much sums up everything they did with CAT. We don't want players to get to creative with thier talents, because then it messes with our PVP E-Sport. So we are just going to force them into a mold so that our failing E-sport might catch on so we can milk some cash out of WOW.

Who cares if our PVP minded changes screwed up classes and made them unfun to play in PVE.

---

Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:

---

Nowadays,
players worry about 5-10% differences. Those are differences we still
want to fix, absolutely, but we?ve come a long way.

You want to fix 5-10% differences?! I think this is what bothers me most about WoW right now. The excessive seemingly minor changes and tweaks for the same of "normalization".

---

Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:

---

Nowadays,
players worry about 5-10% differences. Those are differences we still
want to fix, absolutely, but we?ve come a long way.

You want to fix 5-10% differences?! I think this is what bothers me most about WoW right now. The excessive seemingly minor changes and tweaks for the same of "normalization".

---

Broken_Kayfabe posted:

---

Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:

---

Nowadays,
players worry about 5-10% differences. Those are differences we still
want to fix, absolutely, but we?ve come a long way.

You want to fix 5-10% differences?! I think this is what bothers me most about WoW right now. The excessive seemingly minor changes and tweaks for the same of "normalization".

---

Both Sprawl and Azure are absolutely right. The point isn't to streamline everyone. All that does is make everyone feel the same, and interchangeable.

---

TruthyID posted:

---

Broken_Kayfabe posted:

---

Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:

---

Nowadays,
players worry about 5-10% differences. Those are differences we still
want to fix, absolutely, but we?ve come a long way.

You want to fix 5-10% differences?! I think this is what bothers me most about WoW right now. The excessive seemingly minor changes and tweaks for the same of "normalization".

---

Both Sprawl and Azure are absolutely right. The point isn't to streamline everyone. All that does is make everyone feel the same, and interchangeable.

---

Not only that, but in the process of trying to compensate for that last 5-10% they subject the whole playerbase to endless rounds of buffs, nerfs, and class redesigns that can be more of an impediment to having fun than being 5% behind on dps. It seems like there's a new list of hotfixes, buffs, nerfs, and radical class changes posted every couple days on MMO-Champion.

---

Broken_Kayfabe posted:

---

Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:

---

Nowadays,
players worry about 5-10% differences. Those are differences we still
want to fix, absolutely, but we?ve come a long way.

You want to fix 5-10% differences?! I think this is what bothers me most about WoW right now. The excessive seemingly minor changes and tweaks for the same of "normalization".

---

Both Sprawl and Azure are absolutely right. The point isn't to streamline everyone. All that does is make everyone feel the same, and interchangeable.

---

Boone-Eldar posted:

---

Broken_Kayfabe posted:

---

Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:

---

Nowadays,
players worry about 5-10% differences. Those are differences we still
want to fix, absolutely, but we?ve come a long way.

You want to fix 5-10% differences?! I think this is what bothers me most about WoW right now. The excessive seemingly minor changes and tweaks for the same of "normalization".

---

Both Sprawl and Azure are absolutely right. The point isn't to streamline everyone. All that does is make everyone feel the same, and interchangeable.

---

But is there truly any other way to achieve real balance other than to do so?

---

Ugh_Lancelot posted:

---

Boone-Eldar posted:

---

But is there truly any other way to achieve real balance other than to do so?

---

Since when did perfect balance make for a fun game?

---

Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

---

I dunno, their previous subscription rates never really spoke 'damned' to me. Certainly not over class balance issues.

---

Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

---

Fair enough, sort of... although, most everyone can agree that Cataclysm was the beginning of a noticeable and near immediate subscription decline for WoW*. Considering the watering down of talents, knee-jerk and heavy handed class balancing and rebalancing, and homogenization of all roles has been a large player in the Cataclysm expansion (I'd say it's fairly center stage as this expansion's major focus), I find it tougher than you to just say 'they're damned if they do and damned if they don't'.

I don't believe for one second they would've been this damned if they just hadn't.


* Taking into account all other expansion releases had Blizzard releasing a new press notice with at least 500k more subscribers than previously reported within 6 months of the expansions release, except Cataclysm, where it's been reported they've taken at least a 600k subscription hit since Cata released.

---

Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

---

Well, I will give you that the reasons for people leaving are probably as numerous as there are cancellations.

---

Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

---

Funny enough you had similar arguments when ToA infected DAoC, and you were entirely wrong in that case as we can see now (Mythic has even apologized for ToA now, a few times over), and ToA really did end up driving DAoC into the ground despite the blinders you wore to that situation.

---

Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

---

Oh, and those first two arguments you toss out are related exactly to what I'm speaking on (ie. Class changes). The other two...

---

Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

---

As far as WoW declining simply because it's old. Funny that that would occur right at the release of a major expansion, No?

---

Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

---

Also, Rift really isn't THAT successful. WoW has yet to have a competitor release something even remotely close to being able to compete on WoW's level.

---

Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

---

But no, since I don't have all the data, and/or since there could be other factors, problems and reasons affecting WoW's subscription rate, I must be completely off base here...

---

Boone-Eldar posted:

---

Ugh_Lancelot posted:

---

Boone-Eldar posted:

---

But is there truly any other way to achieve real balance other than to do so?

---

Since when did perfect balance make for a fun game?

---

I am not advocating one way or the other. But what is one of the most common complaints in every MMO you have played over the years?

Class balance.

So do you just ignore it or do you cycle which class is the most powerful every so often? Or do you make everything the same with different skins/names/graphics?

Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

Boone,

You cannot prove that those changes aren't the reason either...

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

On one hand, we have many many many disgruntled players stating that healing is not fun, the game is not fun, and 45 minutes queues to run an hour dungeon sucks...coupled with a fairly large exodus from the game as reflected in 600k+ lost subs over 3 months....

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

One of these sets of "statements" fits with the reality of what is going on, and is shared and stated by literally hundreds if not thousands of people.... the other is flat out denial, uttered by a single person, who demands "proof" yet has none to offer in his own right..

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

Keep living in denial, and I will keep pointing it out to you

---

Ugh_Lancelot posted:

---

Forgive me if this comes across as baiting/etc. but I think this is a false dichotomy based on an invalid premise. I don't agree that the most common complaint among the entire actual playing population is class balance. We see repeatedly where the forum posts are noted by Blizzard and other games' devs to be a small minority of players. With that in mind, and considering that PVP-centric folks tend to be the most vocal when it comes to perceived class balance issues, I submit that in WoW's case, the overwhelming majority didn't feel like class balance was a major factor. Given the changes in 4.0, let's assume Blizzard added two polls on login that asked players what they thought were the most important factor in their enjoyment of the game:

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

Denial.

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

Agenda?


Yet again your fingers type, and ignorance spews forth.

---

Boone-Eldar posted:

---

I am not advocating one way or the other. But what is one of the most common complaints in every MMO you have played over the years?

Class balance.

So do you just ignore it or do you cycle which class is the most powerful every so often? Or do you make everything the same with different skins/names/graphics?

Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

---

Boone-Eldar posted:

---

Broken_Kayfabe posted:

---

Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:

---

Nowadays,
players worry about 5-10% differences. Those are differences we still
want to fix, absolutely, but we?ve come a long way.

You want to fix 5-10% differences?! I think this is what bothers me most about WoW right now. The excessive seemingly minor changes and tweaks for the same of "normalization".

---

Both Sprawl and Azure are absolutely right. The point isn't to streamline everyone. All that does is make everyone feel the same, and interchangeable.

---

But is there truly any other way to achieve real balance other than to do so?

---

Broken_Kayfabe posted:

---

All the stuff you posted

---

Broken_Kayfabe posted:

---

"Balance" to smarter people than GC, and to most RPGers, is to make sure all classes bring something that isn't replicated by someone else - abilities or powers or whatever - so that everyone feels there are situations where they are valuable rather than just a number. Properly balanced games do not worry about whether or not the warlock is doing equal dps to the mage in the fight, as long as the warlock has situations where he shines and the mage has situations where she does - encounters that make the raid leader go "I'm glad I had that guy with me for that one".

RPGers also know that, when it comes to RPGs, the fun actually comes from the details that come from things NOT being equal. Blizzard doesn't get that. White dragon more vulnerable to fire? Happy fire mages. To Blizzard, this is bad. To them. fire mages shouldn't do more than other mages and all dragons should be the same.

---

Groooovechampion posted:

---

Is it me or are they talking like cataclysm talent tree system was something revolutionary.

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

Boone,

The type of balance that you describe is impossible with the WOW model.

---

Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

---

Also, Boone, out of curiosity what makes you say that there is a population exodus after every major expansion, when there has been a major press release from Blizzard AT or 2-6 months AFTER a major expansion's release (except Cata) showing an increase in the subscription numbers by at least 500k?

Each expansion besides Cata has shown tremendous growth in subscription numbers.

---

TruthyID posted:

---

[quote=Boone-Eldar]
Also, there's a difference between having an "agenda" and having an opinion. There's no movement afoot to bring Blizzard down, there's just a group of dissatisfied customers who think that the current management team (Kotick, GC, et al.) is taking a game that we love in a bad direction.

---

Boone-Eldar posted:

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

Boone,

The type of balance that you describe is impossible with the WOW model.

---

I will just stop you there. Please read my posts and find where I am asking for or even desire "balance".

All I am saying is that for things to be truly balanced everyone would need the same abilities. That is it. Not sure how you can argue it. I am not advocating it or even suggesting it as an option.

---