Elaok
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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TO THE GROUND (mmo-champion link)
I for one do not care i did the all the raids back in December / January and none of those changes above are for Hard Mode but its still causing a huge ihst storm i can only lol at it all
this will just get my alts through this stuff faster
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Ugh_Lancelot
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Incoming QQ about dumbing down the game for "lolcasuals" from wannabe elitists.
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Dums
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Ugh_Lancelot posted:
Incoming QQ about dumbing down the game for "lolcasuals" from wannabe elitists.
"Elitists" won't care about T11 raids when these nerfs come around 
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Zero_Washu
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Dums posted:
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
Incoming QQ about dumbing down the game for "lolcasuals" from wannabe elitists.
"Elitists" won't care about T11 raids when these nerfs come around
No, but my favorite water cooler hard cores surely will have hissy fits.
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TruthyID
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Ugh_Lancelot posted:
Incoming QQ about dumbing down the game for "lolcasuals" from wannabe elitists.
All the Hardcore raiders that I know are happy that new recruits and alts can gear themselves through heroics and pug raids come 4.2. It beats running old, boring, content over and over again to get alts and new recruits geared for current content. I can't count the number of runs I did through Kara, Mags, Gruuls, SSC, and TK to gear up alts or new raiders during BC. It was a total nightmare.
Edit:
The s@*t storm has begun!!
TotalBiscuit has decided to quit the game and stop doing his show because of the nerf to the T11 raids. His final video in which he explains how nerfing T11 is ruining WoW can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndcysuEIqus&feature=feedu
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Spookysheep
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Zero_Washu posted:
Dums posted:
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
Incoming QQ about dumbing down the game for "lolcasuals" from wannabe elitists.
"Elitists" won't care about T11 raids when these nerfs come around
No, but my favorite water cooler hard cores surely will have hissy fits.
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The_Korrigan
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What will be funny is when they realize those "changes" won't change anything concerning player retention...
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Quazimortal
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Mostly because they still have their horribad healing system. Hey guys let's make everyone's heal cast time 3 seconds long, that will be fun! 
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Talehon69
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Most of the people in my guild who complain, are DPS. I very rarely hear about issues from healers.
Also, these nerfs are fine. They're making Normal modes give JP instead of VP come next patch, but Heroic modes of the raids will still give VP. Considering the nerfs are Normal modes only, the Heroics in comparison will be quite challenging for these groups coming in killing stuff after the changes.
I for one don't give a crap about the nerfs, my raid downed normal modes months ago. We haven't finished all the Heroics, and I doubt we will before Firelands, but that's fine with me.
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Voqar
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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I'm in a more casual raiding guild (guild has been around a while, all good friends, some are more capable than others and it slows our progression) and we still haven't downed the last bosses - but they're in progress and should hopefully be done before this patch hits at blizzard's glacial rate of patching.
As casual as we are, we're doing a lot better than many guilds on our server who can barely get anything done in raids compared to what they were doing in WOTLK. Pug raid scene on my server went from being somewhat common to nonexistent in cata. Granted, my server (the scryers) is utterly retarded for raid progression and raiding overall...but that's just how it is for us.
I still think they're going a little overboard. The only bosses that needed tuned better were nefarian and cho'gal. At least IMO.
I'm not a big fan of having final bosses that are radically harder than the rest of a raid, like in ulduar or icc. I prefer more of the naxx/toc style where the last boss is trickier, but not so much so that it could be in a different tier of raid.
By this I mean, you gear up to a certain point to do a raid...but it's silly when the final boss is so much harder that you can't get it down til you gear up running the instance it's in into the ground and have the rest of the instance on farm. Or you're in a paramilitary style raid guild, which works for some but not for most, or you're in that mythical guild of all RL friends who are all amazing at WoW, etc.
I don't think raid completion should be limited to paramilitary style guilds who treat the game like a job. A certain amount of organization and focus is needed, obviously, but when you examine the more successful guilds those players put in part-time job like hours of raiding and probably have stricter attendance and performance measures than most of them experience AT their jobs if they have jobs.
IMO, bliz does this (make final bosses that require weeks of work for many raiders), to artificially extend the life of the raid, since they are stupid slow at releasing new content. Doesn't make it any less lame. Maybe instead of whoring out vanity pets, coming up with new ways to do x-server real id bs that nobody gives a crap about, and all the other fluff/fringe garbage they waste time on, maybe instead, they should be more focused on adding content to help justify the monthly fee.
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rznkain2
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Not a surprise not sure why ppl are upset about it pretty norm for blizz since wrath came out when they intro new raids/stuff they nerf down the others to allow ppl to gear up for the new content.
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Ansithe
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Wow raiding is a joke. It should take a minimum of half a day to clear the first set of mobs and a year of raiding for 8 hours a day to finish the dungeon.
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Demorak
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Ansithe posted:
Wow raiding is a joke. It should take a minimum of half a day to clear the first set of mobs and a year of raiding for 8 hours a day to finish the dungeon.
You forgot the /sarcasm
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Arcilite_I
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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I would give my opinion but since it isn't a positive one it will just get deleted.
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Boone-Eldar
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As a fairly "casual" (IE time limited) gamer these days I anticipated that they would do this (just like they did in WotLK) and am pleased they are continuing to do so. I could care less if I am a tier behind people and do not have the time nor patience anymore to bang my head against the wall on "progression" content. So now I will be able to pug the content easily and advance my character/s again via new gear. Looking forward to 4.2.
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Kordirn
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Talehon69 posted:
Most of the people in my guild who complain, are DPS. I very rarely hear about issues from healers.
Of course they're dps now...
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Zero_Washu
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Ansithe posted:
Wow raiding is a joke. It should take a minimum of half a day to clear the first set of mobs and a year of raiding for 8 hours a day to finish the dungeon.
No what is a joke is having encounters that take more than five minutes to complete. Anything with the ability to take five or minutes of ten plus people pounding on it should never have lost in the first place, its like having a game based around the evil guy who constantly gloats to the hero and puts them in a room of doom with incompetent henchmen. As, they are designed to lose.
I burned out in Wrath on Naxx of all places, simply got tired of bosses where all I could think was "would just die already, I am so bored of this", how many times must I repeat the hokey pokey before you fall down?
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Ugh_Lancelot
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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The_Korrigan posted:
What will be funny is when they realize those "changes" won't change anything concerning player retention...
Do you think that's why they made these changes? Player retention rate concerns?
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heiromancerdrackus
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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The_Korrigan posted:
What will be funny is when they realize those "changes" won't change anything concerning player retention...
Wrath had more accessible raiding content. Wrath held more concurrent subscribers. Cataclysm has harder raiding content. Cataclysm has shown a measured drop in concurrent subscribers.
How is it a stretch to think that more accessible raids for noobs is going to keep more people around? Old content that has never been completed is still new content to those who did not raid pre-nerf.
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Blisteringballs
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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First wave of nerfs. 600k was just the start, there is obviously an increasing decline.
My guess is someone above Ghostcrawler finally woke up as said "Jesus of Nazareth, you f'd up the game HOW MUCH?"
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Blisteringballs
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Quazimortal posted:
Mostly because they still have their horribad healing system. Hey guys let's make everyone's heal cast time 3 seconds long, that will be fun!
Yea, most of these changes wouldn't be needed if they would just fix healing.
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Arcilite_I
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They would have to admit (even to themselves) that healing is broken in order to fix it.
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Quazimortal
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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I still don't understand what was so bloody wrong with healing before the change. I was having a lot of fun during Wrath and then all of a sudden they decide to completely redesign the healing system.
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The_Korrigan
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Quazimortal posted:
I still don't understand what was so bloody wrong with healing before the change. I was having a lot of fun during Wrath and then all of a sudden they decide to completely redesign all the classes.
Let's be precise. And while it may surprise you, I somehow agree. While some class/spec combos got improved in my opinion (notably DK tanks, which are better than before even with the loss of ability to tank in frost and unholy), other got degraded (DK dps is less fun than it was in WotLK).
The game is still fun, healers still do just fine. We didn't have a single healer in my guild who changed to a non-healer class/spec because healing was no longer fun. Actually, two of our DPS switched to healer for a change and are enjoying it a lot.
Did the changes ruin the game, like some doomsayers pretend? Definitely not.
Were those changes needed, since all classes worked just fine in WotLK and were fun to play? Definitely not.
Instead of doing those changes, having to re-balance everything, and also dumb down the game concerning talent points, they should have focused their efforts on implementing the Path of the Titans.
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Quazimortal
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Healing is absolutely not fun right now.
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Spookysheep
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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The game was much more fun in WOTLK than in cata, especially healing, and just dungeon running in general.
And over 600,000 players agree, and it has not even been 6 months yet 
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TruthyID
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Spookysheep posted:
The game was much more fun in WOTLK than in cata, especially healing, and just dungeon running in general.
And over 600,000 players agree, and it has not even been 6 months yet
I agree that healing's less fun than it used to be. But more importantly for me personally was the massive increase in the time required to get anything done in Cataclysm. The game in its current form just isn't conducive to having a career, family, friends, etc.. I just couldn't justify coming home after a long day and committing 2-3 hours to run a single heroic dungeon.
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GutterSludge
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Agreed, except I would change the last line to read, "I just refuse to come home after a long day and commit 2-3 hours to run a single heroic dungeon."
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Arunne
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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GutterSludge posted:
Agreed, except I would change the last line to read, "I just refuse to come home after a long day and commit 2-3 hours to run a single heroic dungeon."
This pretty much sums up my feelings. My wife resubbed and has been playing again. After spending 40 minutes waiting on a queue, my wife finally got a random. I went to bed at 11 PM cause I was tired. My wife said she was halfway thru and would be up shortly. I turned the TV off around 11:45 and she still wasnt in bed. No idea what time she finaly finished.
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Boone-Eldar
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TruthyID posted:
Spookysheep posted:
The game was much more fun in WOTLK than in cata, especially healing, and just dungeon running in general.
And over 600,000 players agree, and it has not even been 6 months yet
I agree that healing's less fun than it used to be. But more importantly for me personally was the massive increase in the time required to get anything done in Cataclysm. The game in its current form just isn't conducive to having a career, family, friends, etc.. I just couldn't justify coming home after a long day and committing 2-3 hours to run a single heroic dungeon.
I agreed with that statement when Cata first came out and was the reason I took a break, however after returning about a month ago and doing them again the Heroics are pretty faceroll right now. People for the most part outgear them, even in pugs and aside from the zandalari heroics, I am blowing through them in like 45 minutes. Last night I was in a heroic and the lowest DPS was me at 18k. Now that was by far the highest I had ever seen in a pug, but DPS, Tanks and Healers are certainly better geared in pugs than they were 3-4 months ago.
The queue times for DPS on non-zandalari heroics are usually only about 15 minutes now, however the Zandalari heroics are 30-45 minutes.
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siujoey
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GutterSludge posted:
Agreed, except I would change the last line to read, "I just refuse to come home after a long day and commit 2-3 hours to run a single heroic dungeon."
This. If they just fixed this, I would probably resub. If they fix healing also, it would be a no-brainer.
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Boone-Eldar
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siujoey posted:
GutterSludge posted:
Agreed, except I would change the last line to read, "I just refuse to come home after a long day and commit 2-3 hours to run a single heroic dungeon."
This. If they just fixed this, I would probably resub. If they fix healing also, it would be a no-brainer.
Aside from the Zandalari Heroics, it is a non issue now. It takes under an hour to run any of the regular Heroics.
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siujoey
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Boone-Eldar posted:
siujoey posted:
GutterSludge posted:
Agreed, except I would change the last line to read, "I just refuse to come home after a long day and commit 2-3 hours to run a single heroic dungeon."
This. If they just fixed this, I would probably resub. If they fix healing also, it would be a no-brainer.
Aside from the Zandalari Heroics, it is a non issue now. It takes under an hour to run any of the regular Heroics.
Yes, but the queues are still awful...
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Boone-Eldar
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siujoey posted:
Boone-Eldar posted:
siujoey posted:
[quote=GutterSludge]Agreed, except I would change the last line to read, "I just refuse to come home after a long day and commit 2-3 hours to run a single heroic dungeon."
This. If they just fixed this, I would probably resub. If they fix healing also, it would be a no-brainer.
Aside from the Zandalari Heroics, it is a non issue now. It takes under an hour to run any of the regular Heroics.
Yes, but the queues are still awful...[/quote]
For the Zandalari yeah they are. Regular heroics are in the 15 minute range now for me.
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Elaok
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I dealt with the healing changes but if i were to pick between its previous incarnations i'd choose Wrath healing over what we had and have now
3 second heals are boring and using fast expensive heals just makes you look like a fool and the ground glowing circle heals ...... it just all doesn't work with me  and it still doesn't here is hoping they take a look at it one day until then my Warden / Justicar / Templar pvp god spec on Rift i will play!
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Nakal
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Quazimortal posted:
Healing is absolutely not fun right now.
This.It is not a matter if you do fine or not. It is a matter of having fun while doing it...
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Blisteringballs
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Would anyone else resub for a month if you could shit on Ghostcrawlers face? They could make it into a huge campaign, funny blog post with a gnome squatting over that stupid crab and giving a big thumb up.
I would go out drinking the night before. Eat at El Pollo Loco.
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Boone-Eldar
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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I have not healed since BC really, but what makes healing not fun compared to what it used to be? What could Blizzard do to change it so it would be fun?
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Quazimortal
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Boone-Eldar posted:
I have not healed since BC really, but what makes healing not fun compared to what it used to be? What could Blizzard do to change it so it would be fun?
Ridiculously long cast times and horrible mana regen rate even with spirit on every single item for one thing. The fact that they said they wanted people to pick between powerful mana hogging heals or smaller mana efficient heals and instead designed it so every encounter in the game has you spamming your powerful mana hogging heal over and over again. I'm sure there is more but I'm tired right now.
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Boone-Eldar
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Subject:
Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Quazimortal posted:
Boone-Eldar posted:
I have not healed since BC really, but what makes healing not fun compared to what it used to be? What could Blizzard do to change it so it would be fun?
Ridiculously long cast times and horrible mana regen rate even with spirit on every single item for one thing. The fact that they said they wanted people to pick between powerful mana hogging heals or smaller mana efficient heals and instead designed it so every encounter in the game has you spamming your powerful mana hogging heal over and over again. I'm sure there is more but I'm tired right now.
So if they made mana management a non issue again it would be fun again? Not asking sarcastically, just genuinely curious.
For the record I think Blizzard missed the mark on healing design in Cata. Mana regen should work kind of like Hit/Expertise does for Melee. You "cap" your mana regen so you don't have to worry about it, much like a ranged or melee DPS caps their hit so they don't have to worry about missing their target. Making sure you are keeping your group/raid alive while staying alive can be challenging enough, without worry about conserving mana imo.
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Quazimortal
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Subject:
Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Boone-Eldar posted:
Quazimortal posted:
Boone-Eldar posted:
I have not healed since BC really, but what makes healing not fun compared to what it used to be? What could Blizzard do to change it so it would be fun?
Ridiculously long cast times and horrible mana regen rate even with spirit on every single item for one thing. The fact that they said they wanted people to pick between powerful mana hogging heals or smaller mana efficient heals and instead designed it so every encounter in the game has you spamming your powerful mana hogging heal over and over again. I'm sure there is more but I'm tired right now.
So if they made mana management a non issue again it would be fun again? Not asking sarcastically, just genuinely curious.
For the record I think Blizzard missed the mark on healing design in Cata. Mana regen should work kind of like Hit/Expertise does for Melee. You "cap" your mana regen so you don't have to worry about it, much like a ranged or melee DPS caps their hit so they don't have to worry about missing their target. Making sure you are keeping your group/raid alive while staying alive can be challenging enough, without worry about conserving mana imo.
That's how mana regen worked in Wrath and I loved it but they would also need to speed up the heals a bit to make it fun again.
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Boone-Eldar
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Quazimortal posted:
That's how mana regen worked in Wrath and I loved it but they would also need to speed up the heals a bit to make it fun again.
As more and more haste is accumulated though better gear won't that happen on it's own?
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Arcilite_I
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Subject:
Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Boone-Eldar posted:
Quazimortal posted:
That's how mana regen worked in Wrath and I loved it but they would also need to speed up the heals a bit to make it fun again.
As more and more haste is accumulated though better gear won't that happen on it's own?
They've also neutered haste/crit rates.
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Quazimortal
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Subject:
Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Arcilite_I posted:
Boone-Eldar posted:
Quazimortal posted:
That's how mana regen worked in Wrath and I loved it but they would also need to speed up the heals a bit to make it fun again.
As more and more haste is accumulated though better gear won't that happen on it's own?
They've also neutered haste/crit rates.
Yep. If they keep things the way it is now the final tiers of gear in Cataclysm won't improve the speed of spells much at all.
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Boone-Eldar
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Subject:
Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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Quazimortal posted:
Yep. If they keep things the way it is now the final tiers of gear in Cataclysm won't improve the speed of spells much at all.
Well it seems they are slowing addressing the issues people have, so I guess there is hope they will address the healing issues.
For me it was the time it took to run heroics and queue times, both of which have been resolved to my satisfaction.
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croaks35
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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my biggest issue with healing atm as others have said just isn't fun.but then they pile alot of other crap on us to do also almost every boss fight.
Dispell this, heal that, dodge this when usually healing is more than enough to keep you busy but they feel the need to pile 2-4 other tasks on us to do durin the huge damage spikes ppl take.Basically they leave lil to no room at all for error and they put it all squarely on the healers shoulders.
Bad cc or melee that stand in fire yup there fault for dying but ask most healers who ends up always blamed for it and berated over it.All most think is you have a heal spell therefore you should be able to heal out of any mess up.
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Ugh_Lancelot
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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IMO, the healing problem with Cataclysm vs WotLK is that they took a lot of the "mini-games" out of the game.
Example mini-games:
* How fast can we speed kill this instance?
* How many packs can we pull and not exceed our gear capabilities?
* How many fun and interesting specs can we bring to a fight and still complete it? (e.g.: all-moonkin Ony)
In LK, the minority top-tier "over-achievers" complained it was too easy. In Cata, the majority casuals complained that it was too stressful trying to walk that fine line between death and "Oh, that was neat." LK had more room for "Here, hold my beer" situations, allowing room for creativity in execution. Cata has so many folks having to micromanage much more limited reserves that it saps the fun out of the search for boundaries.
My 2 copper, anyway.
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steveC91
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Tier 11 raids just got the Ret Paladin treatment
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The_Korrigan posted:
What will be funny is when they realize those "changes" won't change anything concerning player retention...
The funny part is that you are wrong big time. 
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