Author Topic: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Vault_News 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
One problem many mature guilds face is entrenched leadership. Quite often the guild master or officers will always do things their way, feelings get hurt, people leave and start the same process over again. What about a democratic guild set up? Perhaps each month or sixth months guild leaders need to be or can be voted on? If this was an optional type of guild you could select when forming a guild, would you do it? What problems can you see with it? Is this is a viable type of guild for an MMO?



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GutterSludge 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
How about no guilds at all?

The only solution for no drama.

 

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PallyDog 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
So it finally happened. My old guild had a problem. Raiding drama, who filled what role, who got togo on a raid no matter who signed up and showed up on time regularly, who formed the raids, constant wipes with no progession, sniping, whining, autocratic leadership, selfishness, all that good stuff.

A couple people, myself being one of them, got fed up and left. Joined a great guild and happiy raiding with good peeps but that's another story.

Due to the recent turn over in the guild, new officers were promoted, new people were asked to lead raids and then were not supported and so on. A buddy of mine stuck around, partly due to guild loyalty and partly due to the fact he didn't want to start over farming guild rep. He logs in last night with a nice little in game mail from the GM. The GM is taking a break from WoW.

So what did the GM do? He booted everyone from the guild aside from family members. That means he totally wiped out the time and effort of at least thirty people who worked to reach exalted, who put their resources into guild achievements, who set aside other opportunites due to guild loyalty. That's also thousands of gold worth of gear, materials, and well...gold in the bank that no one can touch now. This was done at like midnight when few if any were on so no one had any warning. A level 20 guild with seven bank tabs full and numerous achievements. How much will that guild fetch on Ebay?

What's wrong with this picture? What recourse is there for those players?

 

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Arcilite_I 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Guilds only work when the player base isn't 85% children and 12% adults who act like children. This is WoW's biggest problem.

 

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Alpha_Swift 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy

Put it simply, there is no recourse for bad behavior.

 

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Deionnara 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
I guess I'm just lucky that I am in a very small guild of people where we have known each other since the beginning of DAOC. No drama, run 10-mans when we feel like it, fool around in BGs most of the time and yet managed to reach level 20.

 

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Arcilite_I 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Deionnara posted:
I guess I'm just lucky that I am in a very small guild of people where we have known each other since the beginning of DAOC. No drama, run 10-mans when we feel like it, fool around in BGs most of the time and yet managed to reach level 20.


That's awesome, you're in the 3% I left out of my above post...be happy about that hehe

 

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CowboyPhil 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
The guild system has been broken from day one, GM *can* be tyranical leaders that are only our for themselves. There is also the laxidasical GM that doesn't give a flip.

I would love a democratic guild. Officers are elected and it take 3/4 vote to kick someone, just like in dungeons Queues.

Officers should elect to run for office, there should be a 2 week voting window. Elections could happen every 6 monthes. It would however create a world of problems too. People BUYING votes for gold (yeah you know it would happen). hurt feelings, people leaving the guild due to not liking the officers.

I think you should have guild types that are set when you set up your guild

CAPITALLISTIC - Everyone has access to the items and gold, GMs are elected, officers are elected, but cannot be demoted.
DEMOCRATIC - Officers are elected, you can not hold office more than 2 terms
IMERIALISTIC - Current Guild Setup
EUTOPIAN - NO GM, all items are shared equally, if everyone is given X number items each day, everyone has the same about of gold withdrawal everyday. Which is = to 25% of total earnings divided by the number of guild members with offsets for guild standing.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Guilds worked perfectly fine until they implemented guild rep.

 

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GutterSludge 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Nahh..the problem is that forced grouping style of WOW forces people who like/want to pve to join guilds.


When people join guilds because of friendship, they work as intended.


There is no middle ground.

 

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Dums 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Alpha_Swift posted:

Put it simply, there is no recourse for bad behavior.


Ya, there is. Leave the guild.

 

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Dums 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
CowboyPhil posted:
The guild system has been broken from day one, GM *can* be tyranical leaders that are only our for themselves. There is also the laxidasical GM that doesn't give a flip.

I would love a democratic guild. Officers are elected and it take 3/4 vote to kick someone, just like in dungeons Queues.

Officers should elect to run for office, there should be a 2 week voting window. Elections could happen every 6 monthes. It would however create a world of problems too. People BUYING votes for gold (yeah you know it would happen). hurt feelings, people leaving the guild due to not liking the officers.

I think you should have guild types that are set when you set up your guild

CAPITALLISTIC - Everyone has access to the items and gold, GMs are elected, officers are elected, but cannot be demoted.
DEMOCRATIC - Officers are elected, you can not hold office more than 2 terms
IMERIALISTIC - Current Guild Setup
EUTOPIAN - NO GM, all items are shared equally, if everyone is given X number items each day, everyone has the same about of gold withdrawal everyday. Which is = to 25% of total earnings divided by the number of guild members with offsets for guild standing.



Eutopian? I think you mean communist tongue

 

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-Peo- 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
The solution is easy.

When a person leaves a guild (or gets booted) that person loses all rep and progress with the guild. The same should happen to the guild. The guild loses xp and progress that the person has earned. You want the perks for a guild, you STAY with the guild and the guild STAYS with you.

This will solve 95% of the problems with guild booting and guild hopping.

 

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Arcilite_I 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
-Peo- posted:
The solution is easy.

When a person leaves a guild (or gets booted) that person loses all rep and progress with the guild. The same should happen to the guild. The guild loses xp and progress that the person has earned. You want the perks for a guild, you STAY with the guild and the guild STAYS with you.

This will solve 95% of the problems with guild booting and guild hopping.


So punish the whole guild because one person is a douchebag? Do you even think your posts through AT ALL?

 

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-Mythril- 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
The main form of guild government that can consistently work for any length of time is basically a dictator with a council.

Ideally the dictator stays out of 90-95% of the basic day to day hassles and workings and whatever drama there is. The council runs most things

The council is usually people picked by the dictator.

Dictator reserves the right of veto or ultimate decision but ideally should very rarely use it.

Pure democracies never work in game. Unless of course the guild is about 4 people in size.

Representative Democracy aka (republic) only occasionally last a long time. Biggest problem is a lack of leadership depth. Despite what people believe not everyone has the charisma or the ability to pull it off. turning guild leadership into a prom king/queen popularity contest is a recipe for disaster.

I do know of one long standing 10 year plus guild that rotates leadership in it's various games. It's a multigame guild. (but then again they still have that one person whom you almost never hear from who actually most people will defer to if he speaks. which is about twice a year.)



 

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-Peo- 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Arcilite_I posted:
-Peo- posted:
The solution is easy.

When a person leaves a guild (or gets booted) that person loses all rep and progress with the guild. The same should happen to the guild. The guild loses xp and progress that the person has earned. You want the perks for a guild, you STAY with the guild and the guild STAYS with you.

This will solve 95% of the problems with guild booting and guild hopping.


So punish the whole guild because one person is a douchebag? Do you even think your posts through AT ALL?


I do actually. If that person worked so hard to get the rep and guild xp, chances are he/she is gonna stay. It is a long grind, and leaving out of a tizzy fit is not the act of a mature player who can stick it out. It is the ones that are in the guild for a couple weeks and decide that <My Lil Pwny> the twink guild is better than <Mega Level 25 guild>. Besides, it will keep the GM from kicking the true power behind the high level guilds, the people who put in the work. They put in the work for a reason.

But hey, way to keep your VN tough guy persona going.

 

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GutterSludge 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Meh..the game is supposed to be FUN...it is not supposed to be a measure of "I must put up with x amount of BS in order to get y amount of whatever".


I don't put up with BS in my professional life, why in the hell should anyone have to put up with it in a game? For "guild achievements"??

Are you serious??

Edit: And, your way of thinking has already been disproved by Pally's earlier post. The GM had the opportunity to be a cawkflop, and took it.


 

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NukeMage 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Does anyone really think that "democracy" or any other type of vote-in for guild leadership will solve these problems?

Because we all know how honest most politicians and elected officials are in real life . . . I can only imagine what they would do in a video game with no real repercussions for misbehavior!

 

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Arcilite_I 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
-Peo- posted:
Arcilite_I posted:
-Peo- posted:
The solution is easy.

When a person leaves a guild (or gets booted) that person loses all rep and progress with the guild. The same should happen to the guild. The guild loses xp and progress that the person has earned. You want the perks for a guild, you STAY with the guild and the guild STAYS with you.

This will solve 95% of the problems with guild booting and guild hopping.


So punish the whole guild because one person is a douchebag? Do you even think your posts through AT ALL?


I do actually. If that person worked so hard to get the rep and guild xp, chances are he/she is gonna stay. It is a long grind, and leaving out of a tizzy fit is not the act of a mature player who can stick it out. It is the ones that are in the guild for a couple weeks and decide that <My Lil Pwny> the twink guild is better than <Mega Level 25 guild>. Besides, it will keep the GM from kicking the true power behind the high level guilds, the people who put in the work. They put in the work for a reason.

But hey, way to keep your VN tough guy persona going.


If you actually thought your posts through, this one wouldn't exist, because it basically proves me right.

Thanks.

 

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PallyDog 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
I for one find it odd that there can only be ONE gm per guild. In Dark Age you could have a couple people at that level and it often kept things a bit more balanced. And frankly you can't always tell if a GM is just gonna pull something like that out of his arse. Why? Often he may seem like a nice guy and wants to raid, help out his guildies, supports events and so on. So why on earth would you assume he's gonna pull some crap like that? While I thought this guy showed a few signs of being arbitrary, I never would have expected what he did.


And frankly, when things like this happen, Blizzard will lose subscribers. When are they going to wake up and smell the coffee? Oh wait...they're drinking the recreational stuff already. That's why all this is fun!

Almost makes you wonder if they're trying to kill the game on purpose.

 

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-Peo- 
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rolling_eyes

 

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steveC91 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Wish people would stop calling it work !
Guild xp is earned by doing all the fun stuff in the game you was going to do anyway.
Its like being rewarded for taking a pee.

The new system is not stopping people leaving.
I have had plenty leave my guild who are exalted purely because of our lack of progress raiding.
But people like the perks and Blizz should make it easier to regain that rep.
Either by not resetting it to 0 or allowing you to gain rep by wearing guild tabard same as you do with faction ones.

Some have differing views of what Guild Master should do comes back to that word job again.
The way I see Guild is self help group GM is first among equals others may lead raids dungeon runs etc.
GM decides what type of Guild it is and if you don’t like that why did you join ?

If you want democracy step back into the real world

 

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Groooovechampion 
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I don´t want to brag but I am somewhat happy how my guild leadership runs. My guild members are all equal... and there are some gnomes who are more equal than others! ;D

No seriously. There was drama from time but the core of the troop always held together. Truth is that the leadership never leaves enough feeding grounds for trolls and naive flamers. No yellow cards - instant kick if there is something like item drama for obvious reasons. Plus, we are a bunch of gnomes who takes things humorously, even during wipes.


Personally, I don´t know if any sort of "guild option" regarding democracy would really interest me. In almost every game, I just an average joe - your non-commissioned officer grin . Anyways, having periodic votings would not change much (for me) since the same dudes and gals would be voted, provided they stand up for candidacy (spelling).


@pallydog
ouch. bummer, m8 sad


username posted:
CAPITALLISTIC - Everyone has access to the items and gold, GMs are elected, officers are elected, but cannot be demoted.
DEMOCRATIC - Officers are elected, you can not hold office more than 2 terms
IMERIALISTIC - Current Guild Setup
EUTOPIAN - NO GM, all items are shared equally, if everyone is given X number items each day, everyone has the same about of gold withdrawal everyday. Which is = to 25% of total earnings divided by the number of guild members with offsets for guild standing.



cool idea =) but I doubt blizzard would do that one. It would bring too much RP into the MMORPG.............. grin

 

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CowboyPhil 
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Actually I like the idea of droping my guild rep to 0 and taking all the rep that I committed to the guild to 0. So to the guy that asked if he actually THOUGHT about it yeah some of us did. You must be the GM of your guild and hate the idea that you cannot manipulate people by threatening to boot them. I am tired of grinding for a guild. Everyone is talking about the REP and yes the rep and guild rewards are a fun thing. My issue is when I deposit 20 Truegold into the GB and then get booted cause the GM is takes them all sells them in the AH so he can apply it to his chopper fund, pisses me off. When I question him I got booted because I had no right to question how guild bank items are used.

He then booted all of my toons that had contributed JUST as much and 4 were exalted. So yeah they should have been punished due to one douchebag, and that douche would be the GM

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
CowboyPhil posted:
Actually I like the idea of droping my guild rep to 0 and taking all the rep that I committed to the guild to 0. So to the guy that asked if he actually THOUGHT about it yeah some of us did. You must be the GM of your guild and hate the idea that you cannot manipulate people by threatening to boot them. I am tired of grinding for a guild. Everyone is talking about the REP and yes the rep and guild rewards are a fun thing. My issue is when I deposit 20 Truegold into the GB and then get booted cause the GM is takes them all sells them in the AH so he can apply it to his chopper fund, pisses me off. When I question him I got booted because I had no right to question how guild bank items are used.

He then booted all of my toons that had contributed JUST as much and 4 were exalted. So yeah they should have been punished due to one douchebag, and that douche would be the GM


You obviously don't understand the concept of a donation. If you didn't want people doing whatever they wanted with the items then don't donate them. Since you had 4 exalted toons in the guild you had to have been there long enough to know what kind of person the GM was so it's your own fault for being careless with your items.

You're the douchebag for trying to tell the GM how to run his guild.

 

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Groooovechampion 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy

username posted:
My issue is when I deposit 20 Truegold into the GB and then get booted


(non aggressive post from me btw)
You "deposit"´ed m8. Never donate what might be sought for later on, especially when it comes to such guild assets. You are better off asking if anybody needs the mat explicitly (sp) for any specific item (meaning "here and now" and not "later").
Putting a deposit like that will always result in somebody doing something with it. You are better off asking the guild for a nice trade and perhaps a favor in comeback.

Plus, that person must be good in the rules of acquistion.

Once you have their <money>, never give it back.
Don´t ask for <what> you can take.

Just a suggestion. happy

 

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The_Korrigan 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
A guild, like any social organization, can only work if the management is good.
In a video game where, as said above, half the people are either kids or retarded adults, you of course have to be careful about who you associate with.

I've met my guild leader in real life, he's a PHD in Applied Industrial Modelling: Exponential Asymptotics (don't ask me... but that means he's a math genius), definitely not a kid or a retard. He's also a natural leader, with the required charisma and patience. We don't recruit random people in trade chat, we have a trial period not for the ability to play (unless the guy really plays badly and doesn't want to improve of course), but to see if the person fits with us and if we fit with her too. Officers are nominated because there's a job to do, and not because they are the friends of the leader. We kicked several members in the past too because they behaved like asshats towards others.

I also had bad experiences in past guilds, notably with power-hungry kiddies who were leader/officer for the title and not for the job, an officers nominated because they were close friends to the leader. Finding the right guild takes some trying, just like you don't befriend anyone in the street or at the local bar in "real" life. If the guild doesn't fit, just quit.

 

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JaredKorry 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
I don't find it at all unreasonable to expect items that get donated to the GUILD bank be used for the betterment/benefit of the GUILD as a whole. He didn't donate those items to the "help the GM get a chopper" bank. He donated it to the GUILD bank. He had a right to question the GM and protest the misuse of guild items. That would be like donating money to the Red Cross and having the director pocket the money for personal gain.

 

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siujoey 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Guilds = group of friends. Anything more and you will run into problems. The introduction of progression as a guild dynamic destroys the guild experience. The ugly side of people shows itself when you dangle another carrot in front of them.

The problem is- guilds don't carry the same importance to every one. My guild is basically a chat channel with the same people every day. If I start to get annoyed or don't like the people, I will drop the guild like I drop a chat channel. I don't even know who the GM is. I don't care who the GM is, for that matter. The guild is there to run instances with, BG's, arenas, etc. I have zero loyalty to a guild. Why should I? It's a game I play in my spare time, I don't owe these strangers any loyalty. Guilds need to be a group of friends. Anything more progression based than that will lead to inevitable problems. I don't really see how to get around that.

 

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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
JaredKorry posted:
I don't find it at all unreasonable to expect items that get donated to the GUILD bank be used for the betterment/benefit of the GUILD as a whole. He didn't donate those items to the "help the GM get a chopper" bank. He donated it to the GUILD bank. He had a right to question the GM and protest the misuse of guild items. That would be like donating money to the Red Cross and having the director pocket the money for personal gain.


It's really not. And you probably don't want to know what percentage of charity donations goes to administration.

 

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JaredKorry 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Yes I'm aware of "admininstrative costs" in charity organizations. You either missed my point entirely or are deliberately being argumentative. Either way, not gonna waste my time.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Did someone hear the bleating of someone whose opinion is worthless around here?

Hmm, must have been the wind...

 

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Arcilite_I 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Quazimortal posted:
Did someone hear the bleating of someone whose opinion is worthless around here?

Hmm, must have been the wind...


Yep, a lot of hot wind would be my guess.

 

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PallyDog 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Quazimortal posted:
CowboyPhil posted:
Actually I like the idea of droping my guild rep to 0 and taking all the rep that I committed to the guild to 0. So to the guy that asked if he actually THOUGHT about it yeah some of us did. You must be the GM of your guild and hate the idea that you cannot manipulate people by threatening to boot them. I am tired of grinding for a guild. Everyone is talking about the REP and yes the rep and guild rewards are a fun thing. My issue is when I deposit 20 Truegold into the GB and then get booted cause the GM is takes them all sells them in the AH so he can apply it to his chopper fund, pisses me off. When I question him I got booted because I had no right to question how guild bank items are used.

He then booted all of my toons that had contributed JUST as much and 4 were exalted. So yeah they should have been punished due to one douchebag, and that douche would be the GM


You obviously don't understand the concept of a donation. If you didn't want people doing whatever they wanted with the items then don't donate them. Since you had 4 exalted toons in the guild you had to have been there long enough to know what kind of person the GM was so it's your own fault for being careless with your items.

You're the douchebag for trying to tell the GM how to run his guild.


Just to clarify, is there any sarcasm in that Quazi?

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
PallyDog posted:
Quazimortal posted:
CowboyPhil posted:
Actually I like the idea of droping my guild rep to 0 and taking all the rep that I committed to the guild to 0. So to the guy that asked if he actually THOUGHT about it yeah some of us did. You must be the GM of your guild and hate the idea that you cannot manipulate people by threatening to boot them. I am tired of grinding for a guild. Everyone is talking about the REP and yes the rep and guild rewards are a fun thing. My issue is when I deposit 20 Truegold into the GB and then get booted cause the GM is takes them all sells them in the AH so he can apply it to his chopper fund, pisses me off. When I question him I got booted because I had no right to question how guild bank items are used.

He then booted all of my toons that had contributed JUST as much and 4 were exalted. So yeah they should have been punished due to one douchebag, and that douche would be the GM


You obviously don't understand the concept of a donation. If you didn't want people doing whatever they wanted with the items then don't donate them. Since you had 4 exalted toons in the guild you had to have been there long enough to know what kind of person the GM was so it's your own fault for being careless with your items.

You're the douchebag for trying to tell the GM how to run his guild.


Just to clarify, is there any sarcasm in that Quazi?


I'm always 100% for serious on the VNs. happy

 

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Rill_of_WE 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
It's interesting to read and see the different experiences here.

My guild is awesomesauce. Been around since Asheron's Call. Have a lot of people we've known for years and some who've joined recently but quickly becoming stuck like glue. Very stable, very fair, very open. But we also have strict rules about acceptable behavior. It's how we stay stable and fair. We (the leadership) put expectations on our members to self-govern so we don't have to have a 4 page long set of rules to cover every loophole about every situation. It also takes most of the unfun work out of leading. So there's low/no stress about it.

We treat people like adults. We expect people to act like adults so consequently, they do. It's amazing the standards you can hold people to simply by showing them respect. You can then expect them to be good, honest people. But you must also work to keep yourself worthy of their desire to earn your respect in return.

You could say we develop our people, not our guild. That's where our focus has always been. Games will come and go. It's all just pixels. But on the other side of those pixels, is a person who is full of potential. That person is smart, funny, wise, gifted and unique. But you have to respect them and get to know them in order to bring that out in them. THAT is what our guild is about. ^_^

 

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GutterSludge 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
These differences are why guilds(groups) should not be weighted so heavily in any game.

I don't login looking for friends. I login looking to have fun, playing a game with other people looking to login and have fun playing a game.


Having to put in any of this extra effort to "cultivate the proper guild" is ignorant from the start, and detracts from my time playing the game for fun.


I have had thousands of fun dungeon runs/battlegrounds with complete strangers.

Friendship is not required.
Guilds are not required.

Drama is not required, nor should it be tolerated for one millisecond.




 

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siujoey 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Different outlooks like this are the reason there is guild drama when progression is introduced. Clearly people like Gutter and I will differ from Rill because we have different expectations of the guild's function. She nurtures a family type organization. I couldn't tell you the character names of 5 of my guildies off the top of my head. She fosters these relationships spanning years. On the other hand, I don't know anyone's real name, let alone any more personal information, and I prefer it that way. I have never met anyone in my guild, and I don't plan to. I'm not looking for connections in WoW, I am just looking for warm bodies to fill roles so I can entertain myself for an hour or so in a dungeon and the guild just makes that a little easier.

 

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LadyGodiva. 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
The best guilds are the ones with a good leader who runs his guild like a democracy - asking memebers their opinions on decisions, having guild meetings, or at least having a council of officers to help decide things. You can tell pretty fast if your in this type of guild, or if you're in some guild where the guild leader is an idiot and makes rash stupid decisions. Unfortunately, WoW has a lot more of the latter than the former. I don't really agree with voting on the guild leader... he formed the guild and the guild leader is usually a direct reflection of the guild, so why vote them out?

I'm not a fan of the guild leveling and rep system. People shouldn't be forced to stay in a guild that's not really working for them, and guild leaders shouldn't be able to hold membership over their guildie's heads. I get what Blizzard was trying to do, but it doesn't work in a game where people are only looking out for themselves. Guild loyalty and activity isn't something that can or should be forced. I'd actually prefer more of an in-the-moment achievement system than filling up experience bars that go away if you decide to disband or get frivolously booted.

 

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Spookysheep 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Blizzard has lost a crap ton of subscribers over the stupidity of the new guild system as it is one of the main choices in the exit survey when you cancel.

No doubt the C team knows they screwed up, yet again.

 

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HunterTalon 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Our old GM and his wife decided to leave our level 20 guild, so they made a trusted friend of ours the new GM and quietly moved on to other games.

We wish them well and will have a place for them in the guild if they decide to come back. happy

I'm not sure how this is relevant other than to say not everyone is a douchebag.

The only way to escape the douchebaggery inherent in online gaming is to realize that the people and the fun are more important than gear or achievements or gold. Once you embrace that and find like minded individuals life gets much simpler and more enjoyable.

 

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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
The general problem is that people want the benefits of leading without the burden of leadership.

A democracy could work if everyone did their part, but generally that isn't what happens. And as such, if you are going to put time into leading, you end up being the leader(s).

 

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Deionnara 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Found this gem on the WoW forums. This train wreck is actually fun to watch unfold.

http://www.theluckystrikes.net

Dear Plebs,

If you're here, and raging, it's probably because you just realized you were gkicked. I've already deleted all your forum accounts, and removed all your boards. There's nowhere you can post or vent so please, just read this.

For the most part this was an awkward experiment we never intended to go as far as it did. I jokingly recruited a few people out of trade chat, gave them ginvite power, and this thing for the most part grew itself. With it was the nice realization that our 10m raid crew could push levels faster and not have to farm heroics every day, so we let it ride. We figured it was a nice give and take, you guys got the best perks available and we got our XP cap every day. To be honest we mostly let it go because we thought cash flow was going to be awesome, but it turns out you guys were collectively pretty #@!*ty at farming gold. (Over the last 5 months we've made about 14k off of a roster of 900+ people). But the XP was flowing, life was easy, and this was a nicely self-sustaining little eco-system that we just sat back and watched grow.

Unfortunately what accompanied this was an alarming number of less desireable members. Guild chat was basically useless, there were too many idiots to even try to manage, and for the most part nobody wanted to do anything. We gave you forums. We gave you vent. We gave you calendar events. We left GMOTD's saying "come sign up on the forums for X event!" and 2-3 people would do it. We tried to coax some of the more promising members into leadership roles, we gave them an entire section of the forums with spelled out raid strats, pvp discussion, and more.

We tried. We really did try.

What we got was a whole lot of nothing but people #@!#@ing that we wouldn't buy their epic flying, or pay their repair bills, or let them have potions out of the bank. People whining that we never carried them in our main raids, or that we didn't run them through heroics or lower level dungeons. We got a million stupid questions a day about how to spec or what stats are good for X class. We got the few people we thought were worth keeping making a mess out of the little power we gave them. Promotions / Demotions were @##!ed around enormously, guild MOTD and notes were all ruined, and gchat just eventually became a giant sea from which all the idiots could troll.

When we hit 25 I kicked everyone that was inactive. I gave you all a few weeks after I cleaned out the roster to see if you would actually do anything other than occupy space in the guild pane and badger the bejesus out of us with stupid @##!ing tells. I gave you your time to finish reps, buy heirlooms, get what you needed, and get out. The time has come, and now, the ride has come to an end.

That's not to say you're all bad, or useless, but let's be honest; any of you worth a #@!* shouldn't be in this guild anyway because the reality of it is that we're never going to do anything but 10m raiding. We have no spots for you. We have no spots in an alt raid for you. We have nothing to offer you but a backup spot on a roster of people that don't ever miss raids. It probably seems like a !#@% move to kick you, but in the long run we're doing you a favor.

So, to all of you, thanks for what you did, we hope you enjoyed the perks while they lasted, but we're ready to have our nice quiet, mellow guild chat back. Enjoy the heirlooms, enjoy the mounts, enjoy the recipes, and I hope you enjoyed the ride. I can deffinately say it was at least, interesting, for me.

Eum

 

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-Peo- 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Bad GM, he wanted all the perks of being a guild leader without the actual hassle. THis is a case where his guild should have been de-leveled. If you want the xp from your members, you should have to do work for it. But hey, they did all the work for him and now he can just get rid of them like cattle. So much for integrity.

 

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Bremen_Gaheris 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Deionnara posted:


cut for brevity





This is exactly why the guild system is utter failure. It is literally Farmville for guild masters and his close clique in a lot of guilds. They farm their cattle until they have the big payout then send them to butchers block cutting them from guild.

And a small guild is totally screwed for any kind of meaningful progression in the guild leveling system. They screwed the pooch on this one bigtime. But I guess as long as their pet subscriber base of hardcore guilds are happy with the perks and goodies then who gives a s**t about the "plebians", right?

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Bremen_Gaheris posted:
And a small guild is totally screwed for any kind of meaningful progression in the guild leveling system.


Overstatement. My guild of less than 20 people is like level 19 already.

 

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Bremen_Gaheris 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
Quazimortal posted:
Bremen_Gaheris posted:
And a small guild is totally screwed for any kind of meaningful progression in the guild leveling system.


Overstatement. My guild of less than 20 people is like level 19 already.



Oh, I meant smaller than that. Thanks for pointing out though that it is decently paced for what I would consider mid-sized guilds.

My point was basically that they set up a system that can be "gamed" or power-leveled by guilds willing to be cut-throat about taking on new members for the sole purpose of leveling their guild, then removing them.

 

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Sprawl-zero1eye- 
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Subject: Topic of the Week - Guild Democracy
20 is a small guild, unless of course these 20 people raided together all day, then perhaps they'd be a small hardcore guild.

I'm sure we have our own opinions, but it is hard to make an MMO to cater to a smaller sized guild. Unless the stars align and you all play at the same time and were at the same level, a 20 man group would probably struggle to make a single 5-man dungeon group.

 

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