VN Boards Archive

[VN Boards Archive]

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Author

Topic: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?

-MrBean- Title: Now With Extra Baldness Posts: 13,652 Registered: May 23, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 13,376 User ID: 98,822	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	For me... had to be crossrealm pvp. Beforehand, when it was just your own server, you could make a name for yourself. Hell, I even made friends with the opposing faction because when we were both in a BG, we knew it would be a knockdown battle till the end. Hell, I loved going to the server boards and gloating over who had control of AV last. For me, the pvp scene was never the same after that. -----signature----- (none)
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Top 3.. 1. the day "Arenas" were invented. 2. the day Bobby "World of Facebook" Kotick came into the picture. 3. the day Ghostcrawler was born. No particular order. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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-Mythril- Title: International Man of Mythery Posts: 12,141 Registered: Jan 6, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 11,989 User ID: 61,530	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Arenas. (specifically that it doesn't have it's own default gear sets and thus no way to tweak arenas without subsequently screwing over pve aspects.) -----signature----- Tongue-tied and twisted. Just an earthbound misfit; I. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mythphisto- Hunter; Too many alts to list.
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Arcilite_I Title: VN's Most Wanted Posts: 34,414 Registered: Jan 27, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 33,674 User ID: 633,598	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Battlegrounds. -----signature----- PvPing since 1977
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vn_vigilante66 Title: GO TEAM VENTURE! Posts: 22,253 Registered: Jan 27, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,788 User ID: 65,294	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Blizzard designing the game their way not what the player base wants -----signature----- WoW - Archimonde - Ner'Zhul All people have evil thoughts, its those that act on these thoughts, that make them evil I can accept failure. What I cannot accept is not trying.
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Nakal Title: Moderator Bad Moogle Posts: 19,542 Registered: Jul 9, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 19,238 User ID: 695,821	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Healing.... -----signature----- Currently in the MMO unemployment line. Can I get $15/month for not playing them?
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Arenas are by far one the worst things ever added to WoW and maybe even to a MMORPG, at least in the form Blizzard added it as "end of it all" PvP feature. I would not have any problems with them if they were only a fun PvP "side game" though. -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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_Warlucky_ Posts: 1,255 Registered: Jul 20, '08 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 1,251 User ID: 1,310,012	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The latest rework of the talent trees. -----signature----- (none)
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Auenwing Title: straightface Posts: 8,837 Registered: Dec 27, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 8,717 User ID: 752,779	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Arenas. (edit: although "hate" is too strong a word. I just think it was ... ill-advised.) As I've said years before, this concept is at odds with MMORPG character advancement. This is what FPS is for. The two don't mix. Attempting to add it and knock off TV coverage was an obvious business pipe-dream failure that should have not made it past the initial "I have an idea" after work sitting at a bar "meeting". (See: negative impact on the rest of gameplay/customers.) Trion got my respect when Hartsman emphatically declared that their game would not include E-sport. -----signature----- There are those who play tank classes, and those that tank. The weapon is only as good as the person wielding it. Free advice is often worth what you pay for it: nothing.
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Spookysheep Title: Lieker of Cheese Posts: 21,595 Registered: Jan 9, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,166 User ID: 601,475	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	vn_vigilante66 posted: Blizzard designing the game their way not what the player base wants THIS (in all caps too!). Players did not want arenas, blizzard tried to force them. Players did not want PVE changes based on arenas and their so called "pvp". Players did not want 2 hour heroic dungeons and 45 minute queues. Players did not want practically all their old world favorite scenery completely destroyed or "changed" by a "cataclysm." No one wanted a crater in westfall, or hurricane katrina in booty bay, or.... Well, you get the idea. -----signature----- I liek cheese Pirates > Ninjas .....................................
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NukeMage Posts: 3,856 Registered: Apr 7, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 3,821 User ID: 666,051	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The extended time it takes to do dungeons, combined with the really high que is what killed it for me. -----signature----- I need a new hobby . . Ten level 85's (one of each class) in WoW Back to try out the Feb patch in AC
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kuide Posts: 907 Registered: Nov 1, '04 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 898 User ID: 984,980	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Death of Illidan,the mans a legend, why %%"%"%"% kill him... Why kill of the great characters, and make up bull %££! new ones? Loved Warcraft Lore, hate wow Lore ( killing great characters ) -----signature----- (none)
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Arunne Title: The Anonymous Posts: 2,548 Registered: Nov 3, '03 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,526 User ID: 852,899	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	I would have to say the talent/class changes for Cataclysm. Totally changed the class/spec I loved to play. Close second would be the attitude of we know what you want and stop complaining that it's not what you want. -----signature----- "Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be" "I may not agree with what you say, but I respect your right to be punished for it."
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Arenas. -----signature----- Seriously?
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Bremen_Gaheris Posts: 1,567 Registered: Jan 29, '03 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 1,529 User ID: 764,499	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	This is a tough question. I put my reasons for stopping playing in another thread and there were a few but to narrow it down...hmm. If I had to pick one it was dungeons and healing. Specifically, them changing their minds about difficulty. I just don't have any interest in spending 2 hours in a dungeon wiping over and over because one or two players are not that good or don't care. I miss the days of WOTLK where you could have a powerful character with decent but not top of the line gear, still do all the raid content, just not on hardmode, and all that with less than "part-time, second job" hours needing to be put in. -----signature----- The VNboards are so much fun! Its like my own personal train wreck going 24/7 and noone is actually getting hurt which takes away the guilt of watching.
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Arcilite_I Title: VN's Most Wanted Posts: 34,414 Registered: Jan 27, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 33,674 User ID: 633,598	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	If there's one thing this thread clarifies, it's that our small portion of WoW players/vets has a hard time picking only one reason WoW is on our poop list. Not a good sign. -----signature----- PvPing since 1977
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Hornet_MT Posts: 2,484 Registered: Aug 16, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,475 User ID: 706,839	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Bremen_Gaheris posted: I miss the days of WOTLK where you could have a powerful character with decent but not top of the line gear, still do all the raid content, just not on hardmode, and all that with less than "part-time, second job" hours needing to be put in. I don't hate WOW as a lot of you guys do... but then I am a very casual player so doubt I have seen as much of the downside. I don't see the impact of all the arena nerfs (most of the time), I PUG maybe 1/2 times a week, and the talent spec changes didn't really do much at all (there was always a cookie cutter spec, this just made it a lot easier to select without research)... in fact, for most classes it improved the leveling esperience as they got 'fun' talents earlier on. But, with regards to the above comment AND those around making Heroics HARD... I enjoyed running ICC10 man and the ICC dungeons - but the rest of the heroics were piss easy when I started playing them because you could purchase ~TOC gear with points. I predict that in 1/2 patches time when you can purchase the current top-notch gear, Heroics will become MIND NUMBINGLY boring again... I sincerely hope that some of the mechanics they built will mean you still need part of a braincell to complete them but I doubt it. And whilst I haven't raided yet, I can't believe that with similarly well geared people that the early encounters in each raid are much different from the early encounters in ICC. -----signature----- Why use Ambush? Your foe is in cloth and you want to give them a nice surprise! - Sprawl
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Voqar Posts: 8,454 Registered: Mar 12, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 8,255 User ID: 73,152	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	I'll vote for talent tree shrinking and reduction. Although for any full featured (real) MMORPG including PvP is always fail. PvP in a PvE game is always doomed to failure. GutterSludge posted: Top 3.. 1. the day "Arenas" were invented. 2. the day Bobby "World of Facebook" Kotick came into the picture. 3. the day Ghostcrawler was born. No particular order. All good ones. vn_vigilante66 posted: Blizzard designing the game their way not what the player base wants Because 12 million subs is a terrible thing and a game played by you only would be better? BTW, I love WoW - best MMORPG ever by far. 5+ years of intense enjoyment. I just think cata was a horrible expac and that GC shouldn't be running the show. Blizzard showed the world that MMORPGs didn't have to be miserable to appeal, quite the opposite, but then GC and the stooges have taken ez-mode way, way too far. WoW went from being a relatively pure MMORPG with streamlined gameplay that elimintaes most tedium to being ultra ez-mode, zero challenge, get rewarded just for farting or logging in. -----signature----- Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that - George Carlin
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Voqar Posts: 8,454 Registered: Mar 12, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 8,255 User ID: 73,152	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Hornet_MT posted: And whilst I haven't raided yet, I can't believe that with similarly well geared people that the early encounters in each raid are much different from the early encounters in ICC. Depends on how you do your definitions. A 10 man crew of heroic icc raiders (ie, elite raiders) can chew up the cata raids, np. However, icc10 was doable by just about anyone to some extent - might've only got first 6 down, might've struggled a bit and wipe a bit. IMO, the cata raids are significantly harder for this type of raid group and they'll be lucky to get down the first couple of bosses in any cata raid without upping their game. Those ICC casuals could kinda pummel the content with gear overload and the bonus % - neither of those exist for cata raids - you usually want all gear available (heroic, crafted, rep) just to get started - there is no gear overkill route and no % bonus. So for seasoned raiders the cata stuff isn't that big a deal, but where wotlk opened up raiding to way more people and way more casual players, cata rips it back into the hands of the elite. Bliz nubs have called the first 3 raids in cata the naxx of cata...but that comparison couldn't be any further off. -----signature----- Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that - George Carlin
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Auenwing Title: straightface Posts: 8,837 Registered: Dec 27, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 8,717 User ID: 752,779	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Don't hate WoW. And over the last 6 years, the one "huh?" thing they added was Arenas. Overall, it's been an entertaining experience. And now it's not. As far as picking one specific reason why I'm no longer playing, well, I would have said it's cumulative; but actually I think I can point at Cata expansion as I said in the other thread. I stuck with WoW when Kaplan dissed and belittled one of my playstyles, etc. I stuck with WoW after it got boring in 3 months. Left to try other games and came back because the WoW world was funny and bright and immersive. Sent continued feedback to Blizzard that they were constantly out of touch with their customer experiences, despite their assertions that employees played. (I still insist that if you are in a building that has the dev's name on it, by default your knowledge is "tainted" from inside info exposure at various levels and you do not fully qualify as an objective customer.) Stuck with WoW through the gear mess that was backwards in TBC heroics/10-mans. Played in "hell before my time" in what were Vanilla "jump through the hoop wearing a flame suit" raids. Stayed with it from the invasion of the beta boards by the swarm of abusive B-Net babies who completely wrecked any chance of community in the game and established a reputation that stood out in the MMO community at large as one to be avoided (even cited in new games today). Stuck through countless nerf/buff cycles to classes starting at release (druids and pallies came pre-nerfed from beta ). Stuck with it through the devs telling us how classes were supposed to be played (see statement immediately above) and add in stat changes to gear as well. Let's not talk about crafting. Stuck through the constant 180 degree turnarounds on "Lore is Everything! We can't do 'x' because of lore!" as they added Blood Elves in the game they claimed would never be a playable race, and cursed us with blue space goat dingleberries with cheesy russian accents. ..... Sorry, I digress. I'd be happy to contribute to a thread that points at all the things I enjoyed despite those listed above. Sad to see my experience ending on such a flat note as Cata, the one that was supposed to "change the entire world and leveling experiences". It did. In a way I didn't like. Too much change that took away the things that were enjoyable and did not leave a trade-off that was better. Like I said, it's not hate. It's lack of fun. I'd be happy to list those things that were fun over the last 6 years. -----signature----- There are those who play tank classes, and those that tank. The weapon is only as good as the person wielding it. Free advice is often worth what you pay for it: nothing.
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LadyGodiva. Posts: 3,301 Registered: Nov 8, '08 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 3,300 User ID: 1,336,124	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	#1 Healing. I'm not a fan of phasing either, and preferred WotLK dungeons to Cata dungeons (everything from design/bosses to difficulty). I feel the talent change (forced 31) was mostly unnecessary - they might as well just let us choose the tree and fill in the talents themselves, because the way they designed it, it's not like you have a lot of leeway to choose. -----signature----- (none)
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Ugh_Lancelot Title: Ooo...bouncy! Posts: 5,492 Registered: Jun 17, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 5,446 User ID: 689,383	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Mine was the day they cried uncle and killed TM vs SS world PVP. -----signature----- WoW and DAoC - Too many alts to count Charter Member - Altaholics Anonymous
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Riktor_before_IGN Posts: 2,153 Registered: Dec 20, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,091 User ID: 559,276	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Probably number 1 would be crossrealm anything. Why you would put random strangers together who will never see each other ever again and not expect anything but what we have currently I can't understand. My opinion, Cross-realm Dungeon finder, BGs, the casual ease which a small cash bribe to Blizzard will move you to a different faction, server, name, race and sex for complete anonymity as you go on ruining people's free time. If some servers are severly underpopulated either merge them or allow very limited cross-realm queuing between them only. When your rep means absolutely nothing and you are free to be the biggest DB you want with no real consequences it kind of spelled the end of the casual social enviroment or any sense of a server community in WoW. Unless you really like sitting in home cities reading trade chat as morons talk about each other's mothers. I guess to simplify my point more, it's not the developers alone who are killing this game, it's the people playing it. If you don't play MMOs at least partly for the social aspect, I kind of wonder why you would at all? The gameplay alone is certainly not all that entertaining although some of the more spectacular failures or successes can be, overall just based on gameplay I'd sooner go play Call of Duty or some other chat-less online game that doesn't charge a fee to play. The issue unique to Cata that gets my panties in a bunch would be the complete overhaul of how basic class mechanics and the talent system worked on top of the across the board generic retooling of gear. Although it has been stated it was done to make it more fun or interesting in actual practice my experience has been it's more prone to random number silliness. Where you have a basic priority to hit THAT button when it lights up, only to hit THIS button if it does not. The exception everyone notes is the healing system now, where at times it can feel like you are doing 10x the amount of work you had formerly to put out barely adequate performance when things get bad. The primary reason appears to be to make the Arenas the majority could not care less about easier to balance. The changes were more sweeping for some classes then others, but the bottom line is no matter what your class or role it really removed any way to personalize or customize your character other then how ridiculous a name you can get accepted. It kind of removes alot of the hook for me in playing these types of games. I don't expect to be a unqiue little snowflake in a MMO but more variety and choices not less should be the trend. In my opinion it really makes it feel like all the time spent on your character was not just a poor but entertaining use of your free time, but a complete waste of it when the end result is Carbon Copy Class X # 4552323a. -----signature----- (none)
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Bremen_Gaheris Posts: 1,567 Registered: Jan 29, '03 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 1,529 User ID: 764,499	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Hornet_MT posted: I don't hate WOW as a lot of you guys do... snip But, with regards to the above comment AND those around making Heroics HARD... I enjoyed running ICC10 man and the ICC dungeons - but the rest of the heroics were piss easy when I started playing them because you could purchase ~TOC gear with points. I predict that in 1/2 patches time when you can purchase the current top-notch gear, Heroics will become MIND NUMBINGLY boring again... I sincerely hope that some of the mechanics they built will mean you still need part of a braincell to complete them but I doubt it. And whilst I haven't raided yet, I can't believe that with similarly well geared people that the early encounters in each raid are much different from the early encounters in ICC. I don't hate WoW either. On the contrary, I love the game. I have just chosen to show them my displeasure with their current design philosophy by not paying them for the service. And honestly...why can't the content you mentioned above be "mind numbingly boring" and "piss easy" for the folks that can't invest 8-12 hours per day into the game? It is already so bad now that the hardcore raiders are already bored of the 5-man content, and from what I read lately, the 10/25 man Normal raid content too. So, basically, you have your top players bored on "easy" heroics and raids, and the rest indifferent or frustrated. I just don't get why "Hardcore" mode from hardcores and easy-mode for "scrubs" and "bads" was such a bad game model? I thought it was awesome and I truly enjoyed it. -----signature----- The VNboards are so much fun! Its like my own personal train wreck going 24/7 and noone is actually getting hurt which takes away the guilt of watching.
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Cawlin Posts: 20,754 Registered: Feb 22, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 20,667 User ID: 1,030,445	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Arenas. -----signature----- If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips. Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
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Turumbar-HG Posts: 15,483 Registered: Dec 10, '00 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 15,010 User ID: 58,337	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	I really hated the nerf/fix to Seal of the Crusader back in one of the first few patches. -----signature----- Turumbar and his merry band of Alts
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Alpha_Swift Posts: 5,821 Registered: Jul 16, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 5,744 User ID: 697,744	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	NukeMage posted: The extended time it takes to do dungeons, combined with the really high que is what killed it for me. /thread -----signature----- - - - Can someone please answer Fermi's Paradox?
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RyanR100 Posts: 438 Registered: Jan 3, '03 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 428 User ID: 754,917	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Talent tree and associated stats changes. -----signature----- "Its good that you were introduced to these kinds of problems right away. Because even though people would have you think otherwise, [WoW's server stability problem] is pretty much the standard in the MMO world." --Syrus-- (4/3/2006)
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Dums Title: Moderator The mystery flavor Posts: 8,245 Registered: Oct 29, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 7,576 User ID: 732,266	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: Top 3.. 1. the day "Arenas" were invented. 2. the day Bobby "World of Facebook" Kotick came into the picture. 3. the day Ghostcrawler was born. No particular order. Awesome list. QFT. -----signature----- hi
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Tai-Daishar_MT Title: Moderator Troll Eradicator Posts: 18,124 Registered: Mar 9, '00 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,150 User ID: 14,326	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Easy to answer, arenas. -----signature----- Fare thee well VN, Vini, Vidi, Vici!
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The-Sofa-King Title: King of the Futons Posts: 26,430 Registered: Jul 9, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 25,967 User ID: 695,982	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Resilience. Yes, I spent hours raiding to collect the best gear in the game, so I deserve to PvP in it, and not get destroyed. Why should I have to farm up an entire second set of gear to be of any use in PvP? I only pvp once in a blue moon now because of this change. -----signature----- something... something... something... http://sofaville.myminicity.com/ http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/Sofa_King/Myself/nakedsofa.jpg
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	I'll agree with you, as long as the reverse is true. If I spend hours upon hours PVPing for my PVP gear, why should I need a PVE set to raid with? -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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-Mithan- Title: VNBoard Admin Posts: 1,000,060,379 Registered: Mar 1, '00 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 56,880 User ID: 13,156	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	I don't mind Arena's, primarily because you can totally ignore them if you don't like them. What I do hate about Arena's is how they try to balance a PVE based game around PVP. This doesn't work. I think for me, the most hated new addition to WoW was cranking up the difficulty of Heroic's and making it an even bigger grind than before. Now, don't get me wrong, I like a challenge. However, wiping 5 times on every boss and seeing a group collapse because most people are not good enough to learn basic mechanics, is not fun. I actually ENJOYED the later part of WotLK because I could run a 7 or 8 instances a week and pick up a new epic piece of loot every couple of weeks and slowly gear up my alts. Was it easy? Yes it was, but so what. This was "fun" for me. Of course, the idiots all complained about wellfare epics (as if my slow grinding affected their fast grinding) and the idiots at Blizzard listened to them and now I don't play anymore. Shrug. -----signature----- I survived to the end and got nothing out of it, but hey.
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wicked_impulse2k3 Posts: 707 Registered: Nov 14, '03 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 679 User ID: 857,770	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Alpha_Swift posted: NukeMage posted: The extended time it takes to do dungeons, combined with the really high que is what killed it for me. /thread I've never really understood the welfare epics argument. Why does it matter what gear someone else wears or how they acquired it when the chances are the people complaining about welfare epics are never going to be in a group with those players. -----signature----- (none)
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Azure-TheBlueOne Title: Made in Alaska Posts: 7,936 Registered: Feb 24, '03 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 7,754 User ID: 773,760	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	For me it was the talent changes, as imo you should never water down player customization, especially with an expansion. But also, I didn't like the quests on rails along with heavy handed use of phasing. I like having most quests available up front, and not every quest needs to chain. Last, dungeon queue times and dungeon setups in this expansion in general. -----signature----- "When the government scares people into thinking it must take their liberties away, and the people let the Government do it. They are sheep." - Judge Andrew Napolitano http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php
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Sociop Posts: 402 Registered: Dec 8, '09 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 402 User ID: 1,378,656	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	For me it was all the normalizing and genericizing that came with the BC expansion particularly when it came to the Hunter class; Before then what kind of pet you had actually mattered, the time you spent obtaining a rare paid off with a more powerful pet. In PVP back then opponents thought twice before engaging a hunter instead of making a beeline to them for an easy KB like they do today etc... I also agree with Mithan; posted: I think for me, the most hated new addition to WoW was cranking up the difficulty of Heroic's and making it an even bigger grind than before. Now, don't get me wrong, I like a challenge. However, wiping 5 times on every boss and seeing a group collapse because most people are not good enough to learn basic mechanics, is not fun. They did not take in to account pug mentality or skill of the player base as a whole where Cata Heroics are concerned, 40 minutes to que for a fail & bail is not fun and that level of difficulty should have been saved for Raids where it is expected. In fact, (and I kid you not), the last two Heroics I attempted both ended because neither group could kill the first mob, that is why I have three level 85"s geared enough to run Heroics but I don't. -----signature----- (none)
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Isoke Posts: 2,433 Registered: Apr 26, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,398 User ID: 672,720	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	I don't hate WoW, but the fun quotient is lower right now than it's ever been. Arenas don't bother me, though I also decided to stop doing them a few seasons ago. I don't like the dynamic they set up between players -- "pvp" against your own faction? Really? If I had to cite specific stuff, it'd be: Having Battlegrounds at level cap instead of supporting world PvP objectives. Forcing PvE onto PvP-centric players, including all of the PvE-related gear decisions that end up impacting PvP. Sorry, you can't reasonably claim that only PvP affects PvE. It definitely goes both ways, and nobody is happy about it. Constantly trying to force Facebook-related garbage on us. Heroic instances take too long, and their supposed 'difficulty' isn't interesting enough to make up for that. -----signature----- (none)
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	-Mithan- posted: Of course, the idiots all complained about wellfare epics (as if my slow grinding affected their fast grinding) and the idiots at Blizzard listened to them and now I don't play anymore. Shrug. I don't think Blizzard listened to anyone. I think they simply did not want to release the same amount of content in Cata as they had to in WotLK in order to keep things as easy as they were. Just look at how much content was released in WotLK compared to BC. Raid content is just a roadblock to keep people from "finishing" the game. If they do not plan to release much raid content in Cata then they have to increase the time it takes to complete what they currently have. -----signature----- Seriously?
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Broken_Kayfabe Posts: 9,125 Registered: Feb 16, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 9,010 User ID: 646,295	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	I might have said arenas, or resilience, or even some other issues, but actually I believe a large proportion of WoW's issues and downward slide can be traced even further back: to the decision to reward gear for PvP. It's that one thing that led, directly for the most part, but sometimes indirectly, to arenas, resilience, and the vast majority of the pendulum swinging class changes. I say this as a PvPer. Had PvP been kept subordinate to PvE, and not given equipment rewards, these things would have been different: 1. PvP would have been composed entirely of people who actually wanted to be there to PvP. A global, and drawback free, upgrade to the entire PvP game. 2. PvE is based on the assumption of a 99%+ win rate and balanced for that. PvP is based on the assumption of a 50% win rate and balanced for that. This difference is NOT reconcilable by any means. The difference is responsible for both resilience and for multiple changes to healing. Having experienced this schizophrenic problem in WoW I will now in the future avoid mmorpgs that try, or claim to be trying, to emphasize both PvE and PvP at the same time. -----signature----- Thanks, but it's been fun Five more minutes then I'm done! I've been saying that to myself since ...yesterday. - from "Has anybody seen my corpse". Man Everquest rocked back in the day...
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Broken_Kayfabe posted: I believe a large proportion of WoW's issues and downward slide can be traced even further back: to the decision to reward gear for PvP How could all gear coming from PvE ONLY be a better situation? As a PvPer, I would be pissed if I was forced into boring raids just to compete in PvP. I hate raiding and I don't have time to raid- why should I be as effective as a training dummy in BGs as a result? You also talk about how hard it is to balance PvE vs. PvP. The fact that there are 2 different gear sets is what allows balance independently. It is the only reason WoW can even pretend to have PvP. If gear is the same between PvE and PvP, the only lever you have left to pull in balancing is the abilities; and I think we all know what a train wreck it can be to nerf/buff abilities based solely on PvP or PvE encounters. Aside from all that, there is the more obvious reason for gear rewards: it's the proverbial carrot on the stick. Can you imagine queue times if there were no rewards for PvP? -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Alpha_Swift posted: NukeMage posted: The extended time it takes to do dungeons, combined with the really high que is what killed it for me. /thread -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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kyrv Title: Lord Logicus Posts: 14,420 Registered: Jan 31, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 14,357 User ID: 639,081	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Arenas. -----signature----- CO, LOTRO, RoM, PWI, CoH Dragon Age
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NightPath Posts: 5,418 Registered: Jan 22, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 5,294 User ID: 624,617	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	When WoW caused MMO's to become mainstream instead of things that just nerds played. Sigh.... -----signature----- Proud Father and husband If you think that you're successful in a video game than you haven't seen the sun in a while
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Broken_Kayfabe Posts: 9,125 Registered: Feb 16, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 9,010 User ID: 646,295	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: How could all gear coming from PvE ONLY be a better situation? As a PvPer, I would be pissed if I was forced into boring raids just to compete in PvP. I hate raiding and I don't have time to raid- why should I be as effective as a training dummy in BGs as a result? Why shouldn't you be? If the silver platter casuals getting angry that they have to expend some effort in order to succeed is the price that has to be paid to have people who actually want to PvP in the battlegrounds, that's a price that should have been paid. Instead, PvP was treated as an alternative gear path, with all the "shortest, least effort possible" assumptions that came with it. Had PvP gear not been useful for PvE at all, it probably would have been fine, though it would still have caused all the ability balancing problems below. siujoey posted: You also talk about how hard it is to balance PvE vs. PvP. The fact that there are 2 different gear sets is what allows balance independently. It is the only reason WoW can even pretend to have PvP. If gear is the same between PvE and PvP, the only lever you have left to pull in balancing is the abilities; and I think we all know what a train wreck it can be to nerf/buff abilities based solely on PvP or PvE encounters. The numerous changes to abilities was BECAUSE of PvP gear. You have to understand the interplay between resilience, healing, CC, dps, and hp totals. CC was explicitly nerfed so that it behaved two different ways, one in PvP one in PvE, an inelegant solution that showed, ad nauseum, that Blizzard never thought things through when they gave numerous classes certain abilities. But beyond that, PvE has a certain requirement of healing power and longevity required. Add resilience to it and healing becomes absurdly overpowered in PvP (which then proceeded to happen several times in WoW history). The shortsighted fix of raising dps to match did nothing but shift the imbalance to globaling people during a CC. Finally they decided to go with raising hp levels while crushing relative healing power - were you aware that the current hp/healing dynamic has arenas, once again, at the core of its issue? Resilience (and therefore PvP gear) is just a part of this problem, of course... but it is a part. siujoey posted: Aside from all that, there is the more obvious reason for gear rewards: it's the proverbial carrot on the stick. Can you imagine queue times if there were no rewards for PvP? Queue times are what they are because no one really likes doing it. As you go back in time, and find PvP less screwed up by Blizzard, you find queue times better (population imbalances aside) and more people participating. In fact, history of WoW's PvP proves it's not the carrot that draws PvPers, but the quality of the play. Carrot on a stick play is most effective with PvEers. -----signature----- Thanks, but it's been fun Five more minutes then I'm done! I've been saying that to myself since ...yesterday. - from "Has anybody seen my corpse". Man Everquest rocked back in the day...
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Broken_Kayfabe posted: siujoey posted: How could all gear coming from PvE ONLY be a better situation? As a PvPer, I would be pissed if I was forced into boring raids just to compete in PvP. I hate raiding and I don't have time to raid- why should I be as effective as a training dummy in BGs as a result? Why shouldn't you be? If the silver platter casuals getting angry that they have to expend some effort in order to succeed is the price that has to be paid to have people who actually want to PvP in the battlegrounds, that's a price that should have been paid. Instead, PvP was treated as an alternative gear path, with all the "shortest, least effort possible" assumptions that came with it. Had PvP gear not been useful for PvE at all, it probably would have been fine, though it would still have caused all the ability balancing problems below. To be honest, I stopped reading after this part, you just can't argue with stupidity. Are you GC now roaming these boards and everyone must play the game and progress your way because you know best? I like to PvP. That's what I have fun doing. Why should I be forced to participate in raiding, which makes me want to stab my eyes out, just so that I can compete in PvP? What if you had to PvP to be viable in PvE? Dear lord, the whining and bitching that would ensue. -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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loztpassword Posts: 112 Registered: Jul 2, '09 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 112 User ID: 1,362,313	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Broken_Kayfabe posted: If the silver platter casuals getting angry that they have to expend some effort in order to succeed is the price that has to be paid to have people who actually want to PvP in the battlegrounds, that's a price that should have been paid. Instead, PvP was treated as an alternative gear path, with all the "shortest, least effort possible" assumptions that came with it. Had PvP gear not been useful for PvE at all, it probably would have been fine, though it would still have caused all the ability balancing problems below. ... In fact, history of WoW's PvP proves it's not the carrot that draws PvPers, but the quality of the play. Carrot on a stick play is most effective with PvEers. You are missing the problem. The WoW paradigm system, of PvE loot treadmill........ begats the necessity for the PvP loot treadmill. You are kidding yourself if you think it would have been a good idea to offer no rewards for PvP so as to only have "hardcore" PvP lovers PvPing. What you would have gotten instead, as siujoey points out, is that players that PvP would have then been forced to PvE. Why? Because as players figured out that their PvE gotten loot treadmill goods meant they could go PvP and destroy PvPers that hadn't gotten samesaid loot treadmill goods....... PvP "only" players would be screwed. Then, the PvP wouldn't be about "the love of the game" but instead about who was able to bring their raid-gotten goods from guild help... to destroy the guy only interested in PvP for "the love of the game". It's the WoW paradigm that ultimately implodes on itself. There is no other option. The speed along a time-line is the only issue. If anything, I thought Blizz's attempt to put resilience in the game, along with separate sets of gears obtainable by PvP OR PvE... was the only option to combat the problem (as I described above). It's not a good one, but I really don't know what you can do to combat the loot pinata design. I KNOW there is a better way to do it. But it is not the system WoW is built on. You can't change the entire base of the game. There are a lot of items in this thread that are good reasons for leaving WoW. I found it more to be the cumulative effect of them. I did not play Cataclysm though, so any of the newer problems I am totally ignorant about. Instanced battlegrounds would top my list. Dungeon finder was a close second. Mostly because both of them promoted a system where there was no accountability to other players, along with losing any knowledge of your own realm. That is a huge, massive, mistake in what is supposed to be a multi-player game built around role-playing. Never felt like me being a Horde mattered. Made it feel too much like a FPS or single-player game. Didn't need to help your realm, didn't need to know your realm, didn't need to care about your realm. Could play the game PvPing and Dungeon crawling, while never needing to build a reputation or care about the other "NPC" players. -----signature----- Throw away your desires and treasures, and make sure to burn all the maps. MMORPG Mystaquetz in various forms.
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-Mithan- Title: VNBoard Admin Posts: 1,000,060,379 Registered: Mar 1, '00 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 56,880 User ID: 13,156	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The entire focus of the game is to keep us hooked. This is all WoW is. Every single design aspect is to keep you tied into the enormous thing that I refer to as a giant Note: No other MMO is different in this regard. -----signature----- I survived to the end and got nothing out of it, but hey.
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Spookysheep Title: Lieker of Cheese Posts: 21,595 Registered: Jan 9, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,166 User ID: 601,475	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: Broken_Kayfabe posted: siujoey posted: How could all gear coming from PvE ONLY be a better situation? As a PvPer, I would be pissed if I was forced into boring raids just to compete in PvP. I hate raiding and I don't have time to raid- why should I be as effective as a training dummy in BGs as a result? Why shouldn't you be? If the silver platter casuals getting angry that they have to expend some effort in order to succeed is the price that has to be paid to have people who actually want to PvP in the battlegrounds, that's a price that should have been paid. Instead, PvP was treated as an alternative gear path, with all the "shortest, least effort possible" assumptions that came with it. Had PvP gear not been useful for PvE at all, it probably would have been fine, though it would still have caused all the ability balancing problems below. To be honest, I stopped reading after this part, you just can't argue with stupidity. Whats really strange is people wonder why they don't get anything more than one liner quips are ridicule too. -----signature----- I liek cheese Pirates > Ninjas .....................................
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Broken_Kayfabe posted: ... I believe a large proportion of WoW's issues and downward slide can be traced even further back: to the decision to develop a gear based game to begin with. There, I fixed it for you. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: Broken_Kayfabe posted: ... I believe a large proportion of WoW's issues and downward slide can be traced even further back: to the decision to develop a gear based game to begin with. There, I fixed it for you. Yeah what a wildly unsuccessful model it proved to be... How will Blizzard ever recover from the massive flop that is called World of Warcraft? -----signature----- Seriously?
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	He is blaming the difference in gear....as the "root" of the problem... I'm just pointing out that he didn't go quite far enough back to get to the REAL root of that issue. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Broken_Kayfabe Posts: 9,125 Registered: Feb 16, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 9,010 User ID: 646,295	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	You're both right. Gearbased works great for PvE (if you like that style), not so much for PvP. loztpassword posted: You are missing the problem. The WoW paradigm system, of PvE loot treadmill........ begats the necessity for the PvP loot treadmill. You are kidding yourself if you think it would have been a good idea to offer no rewards for PvP so as to only have "hardcore" PvP lovers PvPing. What you would have gotten instead, as siujoey points out, is that players that PvP would have then been forced to PvE. Why? Because as players figured out that their PvE gotten loot treadmill goods meant they could go PvP and destroy PvPers that hadn't gotten samesaid loot treadmill goods....... PvP "only" players would be screwed. Then, the PvP wouldn't be about "the love of the game" but instead about who was able to bring their raid-gotten goods from guild help... to destroy the guy only interested in PvP for "the love of the game". Anyone who played WoW for PvP ONLY was proceeding from a false premise in the first place. WoW was never and will never consider PvP as enough of a standalone portion that PvE is never a part of it, so why pretend the two playstyles, in WoW, are equal. Yes, PvPers would have had to PvE. Such is WoW, it always has been, and always will be, PvE first. That doesn't stop them from making changes that originated from PvP, of course. It's no coincidence that all of the most popular times in WoW PvP history had no gear treadmill (or ignored it) and willingly encompassed PvE gear. As Blizzard stumbled around implementing gear every single instance turned out poorly, from the life destroying requirements of R14 to later afkers and leeches and today's PvP ennui. Siujoey can snivel and whine that his rebuttal fell short, the fact continues to remain that the PvP gear factor negatively impacted WoW from both the issue of balancing abilities around it (thanks to resilience) creating endless PvE headaches (while rarely successfully making the PvP work), and rewarding it for questionable effort (afkers, leeches, and people who just didn't care) which wrecked the PvP and is directly responsible for today's queue times and non participation. Had PvP gear not been implemented, these two issues, IMO the two most damaging things that hit WoW, would not have happened, or would at least have been mitigated. -----signature----- Thanks, but it's been fun Five more minutes then I'm done! I've been saying that to myself since ...yesterday. - from "Has anybody seen my corpse". Man Everquest rocked back in the day...
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: He is blaming the difference in gear....as the "root" of the problem... I'm just pointing out that he didn't go quite far enough back to get to the REAL root of that issue. No you weren't but good effort. -----signature----- Seriously?
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loztpassword Posts: 112 Registered: Jul 2, '09 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 112 User ID: 1,362,313	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	But PvPers are part of the game too. How fair would it be if PvE players could rack up the ridiculous loots and grow their characters, while PvP players were left basically to rot? As I pointed out to you, that isn't what really would happen. Where the two worlds would never cross.... Rather, PvE players would want to take their god-mode (equipped with epix) to PvP land to ruin the fun for the PvP "love of the game" guy. Why? Because they could. That's what gamers do. I'm not going to disagree with you that PvP and PvE are difficult to combine, in games that are built on the WoW paradigm. Which is why I also said, I don't much see what Blizz could have done any different. You start with the loot pinata treadmill setup... and the outcome is already pre-determined. It's only a matter of time. -----signature----- Throw away your desires and treasures, and make sure to burn all the maps. MMORPG Mystaquetz in various forms.
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone, Take away gear dependency, and introduce skill dependency, and this issue never happened. You cannot make the argument that one type of gear is problematic w/o realizing that the heart of the problem is a gear based system, and that you are BOUND to have these PVP/PVE issues with such a system. Issues which prompted an entire set of "gear" being added to the game in the first place. Boone, you get a 0.5/10 for comprehension...but keep trying...you might be all caught up in a year or three. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: Boone, Take away gear dependency, and introduce skill dependency, and this issue never happened. You cannot make the argument that one type of gear is problematic w/o realizing that the heart of the problem is a gear based system, and that you are BOUND to have these PVP/PVE issues with such a system. Issues which prompted an entire set of "gear" being added to the game in the first place. Boone, you get a 0.5/10 for comprehension...but keep trying...you might be all caught up in a year or three. I understood just fine. Bleating about whatever it is you bleat about here week in and week out, year after year, will never change that fact every single complaint posted in this thread or on this board, including yours and mine, is insignificant in the overall scope of things. That overall scope is that World of Warcraft is THE most successful MMORPG ever made and there isn't even a close second. There may never be another MMORPG that is as successful as World of Warcraft is still currently 6 years after it was released. Something had to be done very right and have very little wrong for that to happen. -----signature----- Seriously?
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	I disagree. If there are 1,000,000 fish in the ocean, and I catch 100,000...(like # of computer users 10-15 years ago, and AC's sub numbers, or UO's, or pick an MMO) Or there are a billion fish in the ocean, and you catch 12 million....(like # of computer users today) Who is the better fisherman? Don't let that 12 million number cause you to forget how to calculate a simple percentage. (If you ever knew) -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: I disagree. If there are 1,000,000 fish in the ocean, and I catch 100,000...(like # of computer users 10-15 years ago, and AC's sub numbers, or UO's, or pick an MMO) Or there are a billion fish in the ocean, and you catch 12 million....(like # of computer users today) Who is the better fisherman? Don't let that 12 million number cause you to forget how to calculate a simple percentage. (If you ever knew) There are 1000x more computer users today than there was 10-15 years ago? Really? How do you explain why any number of MMOs released after WoW came no where close it's success? -----signature----- Seriously?
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Crafty_ac2 Posts: 6,018 Registered: Dec 8, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 5,806 User ID: 746,616	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Arunne posted: I would have to say the talent/class changes for Cataclysm. Totally changed the class/spec I loved to play. Close second would be the attitude of we know what you want and stop complaining that it's not what you want. pretty much this. -----signature----- Balance in a game is only achieved when no class is fun to play...
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone... google "exponential growth"..then get back to me... As far as success or failure goes, I've addressed that in part recently.. http://vnboards.ign.com/world_of_warcraft_general_board/b19789/114489763/p1 -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: Boone... google "exponential growth"..then get back to me... You think that applies to the amount of computer users or amount of available subscribers? /facepalm GutterSludge posted: As far as success or failure goes, I've addressed that in part recently.. http://vnboards.ign.com/world_of_warcraft_general_board/b19789/114489763/p1 Uhh that post has nothing to do with why WoW has sold so many more copies and had so many more subscriptions than any other MMO when it has done so much wrong according to the people on this board. I wonder how many times you have linked it though. You seem quite proud of it. -----signature----- Seriously?
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-Mythril- Title: International Man of Mythery Posts: 12,141 Registered: Jan 6, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 11,989 User ID: 61,530	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	you're looking at gear progression from a wrong perspective. PvE should be a gear progression in the wow model. It's the progression in gear which allows you to defeat harder bosses. PvP should be static as far as gear. The reason that pvp should be played is not so that someone with a tank can beat up on someone with a slingshot. All they have to do for pvp is to change out armor sets when you BG or do arenas. Full set of armor. My survival hunter's armor and stats are the same as your survival hunter's armor and stats. They might be different between survival and beast hunter. By having specific pvp sets... it would allow for tweaking of classes in pvp without affecting pve. Can create buffs or debuffs on the armor to change attacks or heals without affecting them in pve. Quite often some special is totally fine and balanced in pve but not in pvp or vice versa. Besides imo pvp shouldn't be about one guy being geared out fighting another guy who isn't. PvP also shouldn't be about grinding the gear. PvP should be about the quality of the fight. PvE should be about progression. -----signature----- Tongue-tied and twisted. Just an earthbound misfit; I. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mythphisto- Hunter; Too many alts to list.
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	[tos_personal attacks] in 1991 the 14,400 baud modem was introduced for a mere 400 dollars or so... That was 20 years ago. Windows 3.1 in 1992...(19 years ago..since math is sooo difficult for you) Some of us remember things like this, and some are completely oblivious as to how far we have come in a mere 15-20 years... Meridian launched in 95,(16 years ago) WOW 10 years later in 05(6 years ago). If you cannot conceive the exponential differences (including bandwidth, total users, and computer capability) between these time periods, then I cannot help you. [tos_trolling] -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: [tos_quoted violation] in 1991 the 14,400 baud modem was introduced for a mere 400 dollars or so... That was 20 years ago. Windows 3.1 in 1992...(19 years ago..since math is sooo difficult for you) Some of us remember things like this, and some are completely oblivious as to how far we have come in a mere 15-20 years... Meridian launched in 95,(16 years ago) WOW 10 years later in 05(6 years ago). If you cannot conceive the exponential differences (including bandwidth, total users, and computer capability) between these time periods, then I cannot help you. [tos_quoted violation] lol I had a commodore 64 when I was 14. We had a desktop PC in the house back then as well, when very few people did. I actually was connecting to the internet when people had no idea what the internet was. There was no browsers or graphic interfaces. There was no such thing as windows back then. We typed everything in DoS commands. In 1991 I was graduating High School. I am well aware of what technology existed and how much it cost at that time. I played The Realm and then UO when it was first released. I was in my mid 20s at that point. Just to keep your facts straight, WoW actually released in November of 04. Just to make it crystal clear for you. I am not arguing that there are more subscribers available now than there was when UO first released 12 years ago. There obviously is. What I stated was that there is not 1000x more subscribers available now than there was 10 or 15 years ago. That is just a gross exaggeration on your part. But let's just go with your numbers as accurate for arguments sake. You conveniently neglect to mention that along with the "exponential" amount of available subscribers there has also been an "exponential" growth in competition for that available subscriber base during that same time frame. Not hard to get market share when you are only competing against a couple other MMOs right? How much competition you ask? http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm -----signature----- Seriously?
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: That overall scope is that World of Warcraft is THE most successful MMORPG ever made and there isn't even a close second. There may never be another MMORPG that is as successful as World of Warcraft is still currently 6 years after it was released. Something had to be done very right and have very little wrong for that to happen. Wrong. Popularity does NOT equal quality. Just because lots of people buy it, doesn't mean it's good. Especially with something so subjective. I would say McDonald's probably serves more meals per day than any other restaurant I can think of. That doesn't mean it is the best quality. If you need further proof- go look at the top 10 grossing films of the year. I bet there is a lot of crap in that list. If you equate popularity with quality, I will assume you eat at McDonald's on your way back from Wal-Mart, while listening to Justin Bieber on the way home in your Ford Focus. -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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Phexx Posts: 2,944 Registered: Feb 26, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,362 User ID: 650,687	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	And how many of those other game makers advertise during the Superbowl? Not only are there far more subscribers to hook today then there was back when M59 came out, but people know about them today. Or at least one of them. If you've been playing online games as long as you claim Boone then you would know that back in the day we were considered pasty faced geeks because we played these games, and GASP paid to play them. When WoW came out and advertised, not to mention Blizzards previous reputation, and the World of Warcraft series' popularity, they opened up a whole new, and much larger, subscription base. As for the more recently released games that have failed compared to WoW (and who isn't a failure compared to WoW when you talk about profits) how many of them tried to be WoW clones? More then half easily. If WoW were so great a game you'd think at least one of these clones would have succeeded. I guess you're starting to see that now with Rift to some degree. Mostly it's because people are getting bored of the same old same old that is WoW, but without any real change out there, they're willing to move to a WoW clone just for something evenly remotely new. I hate to agree with Gutter, I really do, but I have to on this point Just because McDonald's sells billions of burgers doesn't mean it makes the best burgers. It means people prefer them to the other choices. I prefer Wendys myself, but I would never say Wendys makes a great burger, it's just the best available for me if I don't have time to make my own. I wish game devs would go back to just making money instead of wanting to blow the roof off the profit column. Sure they might only get a few hundred thousand subs instead of 10+ million, but I believe more of us would be able to find a game we can truly love to play again, like it was back before Blizzards huge monetary success got in the way of true game development. -----signature----- meh No matter what I said in my post, I actually do, according to VN policy, agree with everything anyone else has said in this thread. QQing without highspeed internet.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: Boone-Eldar posted: That overall scope is that World of Warcraft is THE most successful MMORPG ever made and there isn't even a close second. There may never be another MMORPG that is as successful as World of Warcraft is still currently 6 years after it was released. Something had to be done very right and have very little wrong for that to happen. Wrong. Popularity does NOT equal quality. Just because lots of people buy it, doesn't mean it's good. Especially with something so subjective. I would say McDonald's probably serves more meals per day than any other restaurant I can think of. That doesn't mean it is the best quality. If you need further proof- go look at the top 10 grossing films of the year. I bet there is a lot of crap in that list. If you equate popularity with quality, I will assume you eat at McDonald's on your way back from Wal-Mart, while listening to Justin Bieber on the way home in your Ford Focus. Those things may not be quality to YOU, but they obviously are to millions of people. Also you neglect to mention cost in your theory. Some of the things listed are popular because they are cost less than the competition. This is not the case with World of Warcraft. -----signature----- Seriously?
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Phexx Posts: 2,944 Registered: Feb 26, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,362 User ID: 650,687	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	-Mythril- posted: you're looking at gear progression from a wrong perspective. PvE should be a gear progression in the wow model. It's the progression in gear which allows you to defeat harder bosses. PvP should be static as far as gear. The reason that pvp should be played is not so that someone with a tank can beat up on someone with a slingshot. All they have to do for pvp is to change out armor sets when you BG or do arenas. Full set of armor. My survival hunter's armor and stats are the same as your survival hunter's armor and stats. They might be different between survival and beast hunter. By having specific pvp sets... it would allow for tweaking of classes in pvp without affecting pve. Can create buffs or debuffs on the armor to change attacks or heals without affecting them in pve. Quite often some special is totally fine and balanced in pve but not in pvp or vice versa. Besides imo pvp shouldn't be about one guy being geared out fighting another guy who isn't. PvP also shouldn't be about grinding the gear. PvP should be about the quality of the fight. PvE should be about progression. This. -----signature----- meh No matter what I said in my post, I actually do, according to VN policy, agree with everything anyone else has said in this thread. QQing without highspeed internet.
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Ugh_Lancelot Title: Ooo...bouncy! Posts: 5,492 Registered: Jun 17, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 5,446 User ID: 689,383	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone, I suspect you're missing the original point. Assuming I understood Gutter's statement, he was asserting that a gear-based system will inevitably decline as they run out of new ideas -- the inevitable result of an gear "arms race." Considering the only thing keeping people subscribed to WoW for the most part is that they have a well-designed engine that makes exploring their content fun. Meaning, as soon as you've seen most of the content, there's not much left to do. And eventually, they'll run out of logical ideas to continue the lore. /shrug -----signature----- WoW and DAoC - Too many alts to count Charter Member - Altaholics Anonymous
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Ugh_Lancelot posted: Boone, I suspect you're missing the original point. Assuming I understood Gutter's statement, he was asserting that a gear-based system will inevitably decline as they run out of new ideas -- the inevitable result of an gear "arms race." Considering the only thing keeping people subscribed to WoW for the most part is that they have a well-designed engine that makes exploring their content fun. Meaning, as soon as you've seen most of the content, there's not much left to do. And eventually, they'll run out of logical ideas to continue the lore. /shrug No I understand what the point they are trying to make. It is not something new. The topic has been discussed and argued many, many times over on these boards over the years. They are wrong. The gear based model has proven to unarguably successful. Far more successful than any other model introduced and has maintained that success over a longer period than any other MMO. Everquest used the same model and it was the most successful MMO among it's competitors during the time having more subscribers than all the others combined at it's peak. The reason people stay subscribed to this model is they enjoy chasing the carrot. Once you hit the level cap, the carrot turns into gear. The only way to advance your character is to get better gear. Gear is basically alternative advancement in World of Warcraft, always has been. -----signature----- Seriously?
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-Peo- Title: Caveat Lector Posts: 3,208 Registered: Feb 2, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 3,155 User ID: 1,024,262	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW? Answers 1-9 are hiring Ghostcrawler. 10 is the Activision merger. -----signature----- SWTOR, Maybe in a year. Back to WoW for now. With a lil f2p CoH.
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-Mythril- Title: International Man of Mythery Posts: 12,141 Registered: Jan 6, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 11,989 User ID: 61,530	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Just as an FYI the McDonald's analogy is a weak one. it gets used a lot when the "quality" of a mmo and blizzard's dominance of the marketplace is brought up. The problem with using McDonald's and quality is what are you comparing it to? You can't compare it's quality to a good steakhouse because the steakhouse is charging you 5-10times the price. However among fast food restaurants it's as good or bad as any of the others from a quality standpoint. The quality is essentially the same but it's profitability and market share is certainly dominant and has been. WoW has dominated it's gaming niche. Whether it's marketing... quality or timing that can all be argued but stop with the crappy analogies. -----signature----- Tongue-tied and twisted. Just an earthbound misfit; I. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mythphisto- Hunter; Too many alts to list.
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	-Mythril- posted: WoW has dominated it's gaming niche. Whether it's marketing... quality or timing that can all be argued but stop with the crappy analogies. Your response (and Boone's) just reinforces my "crappy analogy". There are LOTS of things besides quality that can lead to popularity. Price, marketing, availability, timing, brand loyalty, etc. To say that WoW is a great game because it has lots of subs is incorrect. Correlation does not imply causation. To put it another way: [tos_profanity] products can still sell well. -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: -Mythril- posted: WoW has dominated it's gaming niche. Whether it's marketing... quality or timing that can all be argued but stop with the crappy analogies. Your response (and Boone's) just reinforces my "crappy analogy". There are LOTS of things besides quality that can lead to popularity. Price, marketing, availability, timing, brand loyalty, etc. To say that WoW is a great game because it has lots of subs is incorrect. Correlation does not imply causation. To put it another way: <poopy> products can still sell well. The only way poor quality products or services sell well is if they are priced correctly, usually at a significant discount to the buyer. It works that way for MMOs as well. There are plenty of MMOs that only have a subscriber base because they are free to play. If they tried to charge $15 a month they would not exist. Sure there are other factors such as marketing and the like, but you don't think Electronic Arts or Microsoft have plenty of money for marketing or brand loyalty? Why don't they have a MMO that is as successful or popular as World of Warcraft? -----signature----- Seriously?
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Zero_Washu Posts: 13,401 Registered: Sep 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 13,151 User ID: 419,410	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Cataclysm Too broad? If I had to pick one change, the change to healing. -----signature----- . . . For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven . Cows go moo, Dogs go woof and MMO players go ''PVP is imbalanced'' . "Iâ€™m as horny as the hat rack at a Viking bar.", Ann Coulter
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Broken_Kayfabe posted: Anyone who played WoW for PvP ONLY was proceeding from a false premise in the first place. WoW was never and will never consider PvP as enough of a standalone portion that PvE is never a part of it Ok Ghostcrawler, errrr.... Broken. Just because we don't want to play the game the same way you do.... I didn't begin WoW only wanting to PvP. I played to max level, started raiding, figured out that it was incredibly boring and tedious, stuck with PvP. So I guess you would say my options are: A) Suck it up and grind out the gear doing things completely unrelated to what I want the actual gear for, or B) Stick with whatever I can buy on the AH while I get rolled by people in PvE gear because they can beat a scripted encounter that is always essentially the same. Boone-Eldar posted: Sure there are other factors such as marketing and the like I am confused now. Before, popularity was proof-positive of quality. Now there are many other factors? So a mediocre game can outsell a great one? And commercial success doesn't necessarily mean quality? I agree. -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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-Mythril- Title: International Man of Mythery Posts: 12,141 Registered: Jan 6, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 11,989 User ID: 61,530	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: -Mythril- posted: WoW has dominated it's gaming niche. Whether it's marketing... quality or timing that can all be argued but stop with the crappy analogies. Your response (and Boone's) just reinforces my "crappy analogy". There are LOTS of things besides quality that can lead to popularity. Price, marketing, availability, timing, brand loyalty, etc. To say that WoW is a great game because it has lots of subs is incorrect. Correlation does not imply causation. To put it another way: shitty products can still sell well. WoW has lots of subs because it's been a great game and is to date probably still the best thing that we have to choose from. Your analogy still doesn't hold water because of what I've already stated. Arguing the points about the other things you listed are fine and dandy. Look... gamers are fickle. their loyalty only lasts until something better comes along. If there was something better it would trash WoW. if for no other reason than WoW is 6 years old and people are screaming for anything new. The only mmo that any gamer has any loyalty is their first one. For some it's UO. For me it's AC for others it's DAOC. For some it's SWG (crazy i know). However their memories are often looking through Rose colored glasses. Also the statement shitty products still sell well doesn't apply here. WoW even in it's current form is far from shitty when you compare it to what else is available. Boring and predictable. Sure. But as I said. it's 6 years old. I'm like quite a lot of people. I play WoW because there isn't another good MMORPG. Rift I didnt bother with because the things I don't like about WoW are mostly present in Rift. I'm holding out some vestige of hope for SWTOR. I'll give it a shot and cross my fingers that it's different enough that I'll stay with it. Otherwise I'm probably done with MMOS forever. I've played them for a lot of years and if something isn't different relatively soon.. i'll be done. -----signature----- Tongue-tied and twisted. Just an earthbound misfit; I. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mythphisto- Hunter; Too many alts to list.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: Boone-Eldar posted: Sure there are other factors such as marketing and the like I am confused now. Before, popularity was proof-positive of quality. Now there are many other factors? So a mediocre game can outsell a great one? And commercial success doesn't necessarily mean quality? I agree. I am just curious. Since when is it considered good debate tactics to simply selective quote and ignore the questions presented? Is it because you do not have an answer to my questions? Or is it because the answers do not fit your agenda? I will tell you what. I have an answer to your question and if you care to hear it I will provide it when you answer the ones I presented first. In case you missed the question here is the complete portion of what you quoted without you editing the rest of the context off: Boone-Eldar posted: Sure there are other factors such as marketing and the like, but you don't think Electronic Arts or Microsoft have plenty of money for marketing or brand loyalty? Why don't they have a MMO that is as successful or popular as World of Warcraft? -----signature----- Seriously?
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: siujoey posted: Boone-Eldar posted: Sure there are other factors such as marketing and the like I am confused now. Before, popularity was proof-positive of quality. Now there are many other factors? So a mediocre game can outsell a great one? And commercial success doesn't necessarily mean quality? I agree. I am just curious. Since when is it considered good debate tactics to simply selective quote and ignore the questions presented? Is it because you do not have an answer to my questions? Or is it because the answers do not fit your agenda? I will tell you what. I have an answer to your question and if you care to hear it I will provide it when you answer the ones I presented first. Boone-Eldar posted: The only way poor quality products or services sell well is if they are priced correctly, usually at a significant discount to the buyer. It works that way for MMOs as well. Not true. Plenty of crap has outsold superior products that were comparably priced for all kinds of reasons. Claiming that price and quality dictate popularity is overly simplistic. Boone-Eldar posted: Sure there are other factors such as marketing and the like, but you don't think Electronic Arts or Microsoft have plenty of money for marketing or brand loyalty? Why don't they have a MMO that is as successful or popular as World of Warcraft? Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know that presenting rhetorical questions with no possible answer other than pure speculation was a good debate tactic. So I guess we're both learning, eh? -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: Boone-Eldar posted: The only way poor quality products or services sell well is if they are priced correctly, usually at a significant discount to the buyer. It works that way for MMOs as well. Not true. Plenty of crap has outsold superior products that were comparably priced for all kinds of reasons. Claiming that price and quality dictate popularity is overly simplistic. Really? What superior products that were comparably priced were outsold by crap products? I can't think of any so help me out with a few examples please. siujoey posted: Boone-Eldar posted: Sure there are other factors such as marketing and the like, but you don't think Electronic Arts or Microsoft have plenty of money for marketing or brand loyalty? Why don't they have a MMO that is as successful or popular as World of Warcraft? Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know that presenting rhetorical questions with no possible answer other than pure speculation was a good debate tactic. So I guess we're both learning, eh? Let's see. We can agree Activision/Blizzard, EA, Microsoft and Sony all have adequate money to spend on advertising right? We likely can agree that all four are well known name brands that have customer loyalty as well correct? So no real advantage there is there? None of them charge any more than World of Warcraft does for their monthly MMO service charges either, so no advantage there. So what else could possibly explain why Activision/Blizzard has the most successful MMO of all time? Is this the rhetorical part you were speaking of? If it is then yes you are correct, the answer is quality. -----signature----- Seriously?
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: siujoey posted: Boone-Eldar posted: The only way poor quality products or services sell well is if they are priced correctly, usually at a significant discount to the buyer. It works that way for MMOs as well. Not true. Plenty of crap has outsold superior products that were comparably priced for all kinds of reasons. Claiming that price and quality dictate popularity is overly simplistic. Really? What superior products that were comparably priced were outsold by crap products? I can't think of any so help me out with a few examples please. siujoey posted: Boone-Eldar posted: Sure there are other factors such as marketing and the like, but you don't think Electronic Arts or Microsoft have plenty of money for marketing or brand loyalty? Why don't they have a MMO that is as successful or popular as World of Warcraft? Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know that presenting rhetorical questions with no possible answer other than pure speculation was a good debate tactic. So I guess we're both learning, eh? Let's see. We can agree Activision/Blizzard, EA, Microsoft and Sony all have adequate money to spend on advertising right? We likely can agree that all four are well known name brands that have customer loyalty as well correct? So no real advantage there is there? None of them charge any more than World of Warcraft does for their monthly MMO service charges either, so no advantage there. So what else could possibly explain why Activision/Blizzard has the most successful MMO of all time? Is this the rhetorical part you were speaking of? If it is then yes you are correct, the answer is quality.[/quote] You are seriously telling me that if two products sit next to each other for the same price, you can absolutely tell which one is higher quality by which one sells better? As completely ridiculous and naive as that is, I will humor you. "E.T." was the #5 best selling game for the Atari. It is also considered one of the worst games ever made. In fact, they BURIED a stash of them IN THE DESERT. I wonder why they would do that..... I mean, it was the 5th highest quality game made, right? -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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-Mythril- Title: International Man of Mythery Posts: 12,141 Registered: Jan 6, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 11,989 User ID: 61,530	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Don't use console games to illustrate your point either. People can make mistakes on a single purchase especially based on hype and marketing. MMOs require a monthly re-commitment of dollars to their game. By paying every month you are at the very least implying that you are satisfied more than you are dissatisfied. It's why you can't judge an overall mmo's success rate based on initial buyers but more on sustaining subscribers. The purchases are too different between something like ET and an MMO. Incidentally i bought ET for my sister when i was a teen... I played it as well. it did suck. -----signature----- Tongue-tied and twisted. Just an earthbound misfit; I. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mythphisto- Hunter; Too many alts to list.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: You are seriously telling me that if two products sit next to each other for the same price, you can absolutely tell which one is higher quality by which one sells better? As completely ridiculous and naive as that is, I will humor you. "E.T." was the #5 best selling game for the Atari. It is also considered one of the worst games ever made. In fact, they BURIED a stash of them IN THE DESERT. I wonder why they would do that..... I mean, it was the 5th highest quality game made, right? You still have not answered my question. Edit: Holy jacked up formatting. -----signature----- Seriously?
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-Spacelord- Posts: 17,650 Registered: Dec 18, '00 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,923 User ID: 59,430	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	HOUSING! -----signature----- (none)
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JaconKin Posts: 2,121 Registered: Jan 16, '07 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,107 User ID: 1,199,091	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The removal of the Path of the Titans before Cataclysm's release. The going backward instead of forward in gameplay mechanics in Cataclysm, harder less "fun" dungeons, crafting "orbs" being BOP, the streamlined talent trees, and no new evolution in gameplay and end game model to freshen up end game. -----signature----- Looking Forward to Guild Wars 2 and serving crow. Currenlty Writing: The Web of Life.
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	-Mythril- posted: MMOs require a monthly re-commitment of dollars to their game. By paying every month you are at the very least implying that you are satisfied more than you are dissatisfied. The most intriguing in that to me are the people who constantly pretend the game is crap, Mc Donalds, etc... yet still keep on paying to play it for years and years. I guess it means exactly what you said... that despited their claims, they are still satisfied by their "Mc Donalds" gaming. -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	I never said WoW was not good. (Despite my cancelled sub.) It's a gaming marvel. It arguably IS the best MMO that's ever been made. I was merely making the (I thought) OBVIOUS statement that just because something sells well, doesn't mean it is GOOD. Either way, I am not going to go on debating something so ridiculously common sense. Lots of things factor in to a game's success. -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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Phexx Posts: 2,944 Registered: Feb 26, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,362 User ID: 650,687	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: Sure there are other factors such as marketing and the like, but you don't think Electronic Arts or Microsoft have plenty of money for marketing or brand loyalty? Why don't they have a MMO that is as successful or popular as World of Warcraft? HAVE plenty of money for marketing, and USE that money to market a MMO are two different things. You aren't telling us that other game companies have marketed their products anywhere near as much or as well as Blizzard did with WoW are you? This is just anecdotal evidence but I'll post it anyway. My brother plays WoW, it's his first ever online MMO. He used to razz me all the time for paying to play a game when there were so many you could buy and play for free, I don't know what got him to try it, perhaps his kids. So in a conversation one day I talked about UO, AC, DAoC, EQ and the upcoming (at the time) Warhammer. His response to each and every one of those games was "they suck" without having any experience or prior knowledge of how the games worked or played. This is the mentality of a lot of people who play WoW that I've seen, if it's their first and only MMO experience. WoW made online gaming mainstream. WoW made it ok to pay to play a game and people finally understood that us gamers weren't just losers living in mom's basement sucking back energy drinks. (at least not all of us!) WoW is a great success no doubt. How many of those 12 million subs are new players who've never played the old time games? I'd say a large majority since the online gaming market was so much smaller pre-WoW. Does that mean WoW is a great game compared to all those old time games? Not really. To me it mostly means they got people to actually play the game, largely through advertising, and making the stigma of being a gamer less embarrassing. WoW is a good game, made for the mass market, advertised to everyone and anyone and made so anyone can succeed. Does this make it a great game? Not at all. Popularity does not automatically equal greatness. I still don't know who the f%&$ this Justin Beeber guy is or why I should care. -----signature----- meh No matter what I said in my post, I actually do, according to VN policy, agree with everything anyone else has said in this thread. QQing without highspeed internet.
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Phexx Posts: 2,944 Registered: Feb 26, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,362 User ID: 650,687	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	-Mythril- posted: WoW has lots of subs because it's been a great game and is to date probably still the best thing that we have to choose from. I disagree it's a great game, but it is unfortunately the best to chose from. A large reason for that imo is because of it's huge success that devs are trying to attain that as well, instead of making something new, and fun, and different that might work and work well but may not hit the 10 million sub mark. Instead of trying for a double every company is swinging for the fences, but using WoW's bat and batting glove and batting helmet, and stance, and swing and thinking it's the only way to go. You like that analogy better? -----signature----- meh No matter what I said in my post, I actually do, according to VN policy, agree with everything anyone else has said in this thread. QQing without highspeed internet.
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Phexx posted: I still don't know who the f%&$ this Justin Beeber guy is or why I should care. I know he is a singer with annoying hair. Can't name any songs, but I did see on Conan that he recently accidentally lit his mom's hair on fire during a show. (On stage) Awesome. -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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Phexx Posts: 2,944 Registered: Feb 26, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,362 User ID: 650,687	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: Phexx posted: I still don't know who the f%&$ this Justin Beeber guy is or why I should care. I know he is a singer with annoying hair. Can't name any songs, but I did see on Conan that he recently accidentally lit his mom's hair on fire during a show. (On stage) Awesome. Lighting people on fire? Hmm maybe I really should check this Beeber dude out. -----signature----- meh No matter what I said in my post, I actually do, according to VN policy, agree with everything anyone else has said in this thread. QQing without highspeed internet.
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-Mythril- Title: International Man of Mythery Posts: 12,141 Registered: Jan 6, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 11,989 User ID: 61,530	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Phexx posted: -Mythril- posted: WoW has lots of subs because it's been a great game and is to date probably still the best thing that we have to choose from. I disagree it's a great game, but it is unfortunately the best to chose from. A large reason for that imo is because of it's huge success that devs are trying to attain that as well, instead of making something new, and fun, and different that might work and work well but may not hit the 10 million sub mark. Instead of trying for a double every company is swinging for the fences, but using WoW's bat and batting glove and batting helmet, and stance, and swing and thinking it's the only way to go. You like that analogy better? It's an analogy but it applies to other companies trying to mimic WoW. I agree with that. It's why i didnt switch to Rift. The same things that are stale for me in WoW are present in Rift. Your batting analogy in no way applies to WoW's greatness or lack thereof. Doesn't address it at all. You say it isn't great. ok. that's an opinion of course. My question to you would be is the only way a game is great is if it is great to you and you only or do other people come into the mix at all? Whether you enjoy or not right now a few things are out there that can't be argued with. WoW has dominated a highly competitive market for 6 years. It's taken 6 years for subscription numbers to start to trend downward. And even though the numbers are going downward finally. It's not actually from any serious competition so far but merely people have finally gotten tired or bored of the WoW model. When you look at success rate and longevity and it's ability to continue to have millions of people reaffirm their satisfaction on a monthly basis, I'd have to say it's been a great game. as for me I'm bored with it as well. It's gotten old for me. But just because it's finally gotten stale and old doesn't mean that it hasnt been a great game. Im hoping that swtor does enough new things to maintain my interest. Because I'm pretty much done with the WoW model. -----signature----- Tongue-tied and twisted. Just an earthbound misfit; I. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mythphisto- Hunter; Too many alts to list.
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	-Mythril- posted: Im hoping that swtor does enough new things to maintain my interest. Because I'm pretty much done with the WoW model. Well, you possibly know from my frequent posting on the VN SW:TOR forum that I follow that game closely. I'm afraid you're gonna be disappointed if you await something drastically different from WoW. Sadly. I'm still positive on that game though because even if just the story is as good as in Bioware KOTOR games, it will be worth playing. But the gameplay is very similar to WoW-type EQ clones. -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: I never said WoW was not good. (Despite my cancelled sub.) It's a gaming marvel. It arguably IS the best MMO that's ever been made. I was merely making the (I thought) OBVIOUS statement that just because something sells well, doesn't mean it is GOOD. Either way, I am not going to go on debating something so ridiculously common sense. Lots of things factor in to a game's success. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate what you consider common sense. -----signature----- Seriously?
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Phexx Posts: 2,944 Registered: Feb 26, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,362 User ID: 650,687	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	-Mythril- posted: It's an analogy but it applies to other companies trying to mimic WoW. I agree with that. It's why i didnt switch to Rift. The same things that are stale for me in WoW are present in Rift. Your batting analogy in no way applies to WoW's greatness or lack thereof. Doesn't address it at all. We could argue the hamburger analogy all day, it comes down to personal taste. For my dollar, a Wendy's burger is vastly superior to a McDonald's burger, for the same price, so the analogy fits for me, it may not for everybody. That's not to say a Wendy's burger is great, it's just better. WoW is not great, but it is better then the other choices out there right now. (Have not played Rift) -Mythril- posted: You say it isn't great. ok. that's an opinion of course. My question to you would be is the only way a game is great is if it is great to you and you only or do other people come into the mix at all? How do you form an impression? By your own experience or just from what you hear from others? UO was a great game. AC was a great game. I hated EQ, but it was considered a great game by many. DAoC was a great game. WoW was a good game. Almost everything since has been a WoW clone to some degree, therefore not great so why would I go from good to good? I personally think Vanguard could have been that great game, if they hadn't released it so damn buggy then took too long to fix that they lost they're player base. But again that's me. I found the characters more fun to play, more varied etc. The game was a victim of bad management and implementation more then a bad idea. But it was a failure nonetheless. If not for it's buggy release it could have been a competitor for WoW, my opinion of course. If WoW weren't filled with "first timers" I would be more willing to let the numbers speak for it's greatness, but when a huge majority of those 12 million have never experienced another game, how can I take their opinions seriously? That's like saying I'll only eat at McDonalds (here we go again) because it's the biggest, and some guy who's never had another burger told me so. -Mythril- posted: WoW has dominated a highly competitive market for 6 years. It's taken 6 years for subscription numbers to start to trend downward. And even though the numbers are going downward finally. It's not actually from any serious competition so far but merely people have finally gotten tired or bored of the WoW model. I'm not sure how you can call it highly competitive. The only games that compete are actually older then WoW. Most everything since has been a WoW clone, and again I believe it goes back to the first timers. They're not going anywhere for the most part. Those of us who have experienced different always look for the next thing, and what we end up seeing is the same old shit in a different package, instead of something new and innovative. There was a reason I went from UO, to EQ, to AC, to DAoC, to WoW (and all the crap in between to at least try them out). Back in those days when a new game came out, it had something actually NEW. Today it's the same old shit served on a different plate. I don't call that competitive, I call that stagnant. -----signature----- meh No matter what I said in my post, I actually do, according to VN policy, agree with everything anyone else has said in this thread. QQing without highspeed internet.
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Agreed. I seem to have underestimated how hard that concept was to grasp. -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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Phexx Posts: 2,944 Registered: Feb 26, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,362 User ID: 650,687	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: siujoey posted: I never said WoW was not good. (Despite my cancelled sub.) It's a gaming marvel. It arguably IS the best MMO that's ever been made. I was merely making the (I thought) OBVIOUS statement that just because something sells well, doesn't mean it is GOOD. Either way, I am not going to go on debating something so ridiculously common sense. Lots of things factor in to a game's success. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate what you consider common sense. Before WoW the biggest game out there was EQ with what? 200K subs? Lets say all the other options out there had another combined 200K, for arguments sake, though I believe it was probably a bit higher. So 400k. WoW hit 12 Million. What doesn't seem like common sense to me is that 11,600,000 people who never played a MMO before WoW are telling you and many others that WoW is a great game. If you think WoW is a great game from you're experience playing, I can't argue that, it's your opinion. But when you try to say it's great simply because 11,600,000 people, with nothing else to compare it to, play it, that is just silly. As I said to Mythril, I prefer to use my own, and other experienced gamers as a testing ground, not people with no other experience whatsoever. That is what I consider common sense. -----signature----- meh No matter what I said in my post, I actually do, according to VN policy, agree with everything anyone else has said in this thread. QQing without highspeed internet.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Phexx posted: Boone-Eldar posted: siujoey posted: I never said WoW was not good. (Despite my cancelled sub.) It's a gaming marvel. It arguably IS the best MMO that's ever been made. I was merely making the (I thought) OBVIOUS statement that just because something sells well, doesn't mean it is GOOD. Either way, I am not going to go on debating something so ridiculously common sense. Lots of things factor in to a game's success. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate what you consider common sense. Before WoW the biggest game out there was EQ with what? 200K subs? Lets say all the other options out there had another combined 200K, for arguments sake, though I believe it was probably a bit higher. So 400k. WoW hit 12 Million. What doesn't seem like common sense to me is that 11,600,000 people who never played a MMO before WoW are telling you and many others that WoW is a great game. If you think WoW is a great game from you're experience playing, I can't argue that, it's your opinion. But when you try to say it's great simply because 11,600,000 people, with nothing else to compare it to, play it, that is just silly. As I said to Mythril, I prefer to use my own, and other experienced gamers as a testing ground, not people with no other experience whatsoever. That is what I consider common sense. EQ was over 500k at it's peak. I provided a link earlier in this thread showing just exactly how much competition there is in the MMO market. Your logic is flawed. -----signature----- Seriously?
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: EQ was over 500k at it's peak. I provided a link earlier in this thread showing just exactly how much competition there is in the MMO market. Your logic is flawed. Actually, his logic is kinda "inverted". At the times of EQ, there was little to no competition (UO had to patch in a PvE world to compete with EQ which was stealing all the players), EQ managed to get 500k, and you also had Asheron's Call. Nowadays, you have dozens and dozens of MMORPGs on the market. HUGE competition compared to EQ times. Yet WoW still managed to literally CRUSH all competition, despite fighting against dozens of foes and not only 3 like EQ. And better, they keep the lead for years and years, meaning people keep on paying to play that game despite at least half a dozen if not more new MMOs being released each year. No matter how you turn it, they must have done something right. -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	I just noticed Boone's title. LMAO! -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: I just noticed Boone's title. LMAO! lol it is tongue in cheek. -----signature----- Seriously?
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Spookysheep Title: Lieker of Cheese Posts: 21,595 Registered: Jan 9, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,166 User ID: 601,475	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Spookysheep posted: siujoey posted: Broken_Kayfabe posted: [quote=siujoey]How could all gear coming from PvE ONLY be a better situation? As a PvPer, I would be pissed if I was forced into boring raids just to compete in PvP. I hate raiding and I don't have time to raid- why should I be as effective as a training dummy in BGs as a result? Why shouldn't you be? If the silver platter casuals getting angry that they have to expend some effort in order to succeed is the price that has to be paid to have people who actually want to PvP in the battlegrounds, that's a price that should have been paid. Instead, PvP was treated as an alternative gear path, with all the "shortest, least effort possible" assumptions that came with it. Had PvP gear not been useful for PvE at all, it probably would have been fine, though it would still have caused all the ability balancing problems below. To be honest, I stopped reading after this part, you just can't argue with stupidity. Whats really strange is people wonder why they don't get anything more than one liner quips are ridicule too. -----signature----- I liek cheese Pirates > Ninjas .....................................
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Phexx Posts: 2,944 Registered: Feb 26, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,362 User ID: 650,687	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: Phexx posted: Boone-Eldar posted: [quote=siujoey]I never said WoW was not good. (Despite my cancelled sub.) It's a gaming marvel. It arguably IS the best MMO that's ever been made. I was merely making the (I thought) OBVIOUS statement that just because something sells well, doesn't mean it is GOOD. Either way, I am not going to go on debating something so ridiculously common sense. Lots of things factor in to a game's success. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate what you consider common sense. Before WoW the biggest game out there was EQ with what? 200K subs? Lets say all the other options out there had another combined 200K, for arguments sake, though I believe it was probably a bit higher. So 400k. WoW hit 12 Million. What doesn't seem like common sense to me is that 11,600,000 people who never played a MMO before WoW are telling you and many others that WoW is a great game. If you think WoW is a great game from you're experience playing, I can't argue that, it's your opinion. But when you try to say it's great simply because 11,600,000 people, with nothing else to compare it to, play it, that is just silly. As I said to Mythril, I prefer to use my own, and other experienced gamers as a testing ground, not people with no other experience whatsoever. That is what I consider common sense. EQ was over 500k at it's peak. I provided a link earlier in this thread showing just exactly how much competition there is in the MMO market. Your logic is flawed.[/quote] My apologies, I took a flying guess at the number because I didn't feel like looking back. Lets put it at 1 million, high, but for arguments sake that's ok. Hell lets go with 2 million to be extra safe. 2 million people playing MMO's before WoW. That means 10 million WoW subs are new players that didn't play MMO's back in the day (if everyone from the previous player base moved to WoW, which we know didn't happen). It's the only game they've played. They have no basis for comparison. Just because other games are out there, until those 10 million try them, I won't take their opinion seriously. Now maybe those 10 million think WoW is the best game ever!!! So what? Again they have no basis for comparison unless they've tried the so called competition. And I'd think the same if they said WoW sucks compared to other MMO's, if that is they hadn't even tried others. I respect the fact that some people think WoW is great, that's not my argument. My argument is believing it's the best simply because of the number of subs. That's ridiculous. If they've never tried the others how can they make the comparison? They can't. WoW got a whole boatload of new people playing MMO's. Again, so what? That doesn't automatically make WoW the best game, it means Blizzard broke the stigma of the pasty faced geek playing games and made it popular to the masses, as opposed to targetting only gamers which is what most other companies did pre-WoW. And strangely post-WoW. I've still yet to see any new game advertise like WoW did and does. And before someone comes in and says "How do you know they haven't tried them?" That's easy, besides EQ no other game has hit half a million subs, ever, until WoW. That tells me there is a huge population of MMO players that have played WoW and WoW only. It's ok for you to like WoW. It's ok for you to claim it's great and it's your favorite bestest game ever, if that's what you beleive. But it's not ok to say so simply because of it's sub base. That's where common sense would fit it. -----signature----- meh No matter what I said in my post, I actually do, according to VN policy, agree with everything anyone else has said in this thread. QQing without highspeed internet.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Phexx posted: And before someone comes in and says "How do you know they haven't tried them?" That's easy, besides EQ no other game has hit half a million subs, ever, until WoW. That tells me there is a huge population of MMO players that have played WoW and WoW only. Not true. There have been quite a few MMOs that have gotten over that mark. -----signature----- Seriously?
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: siujoey posted: I just noticed Boone's title. LMAO! lol it is tongue in cheek. I know, it just seemed funny. :-) -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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Ugh_Lancelot Title: Ooo...bouncy! Posts: 5,492 Registered: Jun 17, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 5,446 User ID: 689,383	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: Phexx posted: And before someone comes in and says "How do you know they haven't tried them?" That's easy, besides EQ no other game has hit half a million subs, ever, until WoW. That tells me there is a huge population of MMO players that have played WoW and WoW only. Not true. There have been quite a few MMOs that have gotten over that mark. So you're saying market growth models differ drastically based on region? -----signature----- WoW and DAoC - Too many alts to count Charter Member - Altaholics Anonymous
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Ugh_Lancelot posted: Boone-Eldar posted: Phexx posted: And before someone comes in and says "How do you know they haven't tried them?" That's easy, besides EQ no other game has hit half a million subs, ever, until WoW. That tells me there is a huge population of MMO players that have played WoW and WoW only. Not true. There have been quite a few MMOs that have gotten over that mark. So you're saying market growth models differ drastically based on region? Uhh I am not sure how you draw that conclusion from what I said. -----signature----- Seriously?
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: GutterSludge posted: [tos_quoted violation] in 1991 the 14,400 baud modem was introduced for a mere 400 dollars or so... That was 20 years ago. Windows 3.1 in 1992...(19 years ago..since math is sooo difficult for you) Some of us remember things like this, and some are completely oblivious as to how far we have come in a mere 15-20 years... Meridian launched in 95,(16 years ago) WOW 10 years later in 05(6 years ago). If you cannot conceive the exponential differences (including bandwidth, total users, and computer capability) between these time periods, then I cannot help you. [tos_quoted violation] lol I had a commodore 64 when I was 14. We had a desktop PC in the house back then as well, when very few people did. I actually was connecting to the internet when people had no idea what the internet was. There was no browsers or graphic interfaces. There was no such thing as windows back then. We typed everything in DoS commands. In 1991 I was graduating High School. I am well aware of what technology existed and how much it cost at that time. I played The Realm and then UO when it was first released. I was in my mid 20s at that point. Just to keep your facts straight, WoW actually released in November of 04. Just to make it crystal clear for you. I am not arguing that there are more subscribers available now than there was when UO first released 12 years ago. There obviously is. What I stated was that there is not 1000x more subscribers available now than there was 10 or 15 years ago. That is just a gross exaggeration on your part. But let's just go with your numbers as accurate for arguments sake. You conveniently neglect to mention that along with the "exponential" amount of available subscribers there has also been an "exponential" growth in competition for that available subscriber base during that same time frame. Not hard to get market share when you are only competing against a couple other MMOs right? How much competition you ask? http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm 1990---3 million users worldwide 1995- 16 million users worldwide (Meridain, December 1995) 2004- 817 million users worldwide (WOW launched) 2010- 2.04 billion users worldwide. You're right..thats only like 700 times more users..not 1000, so much for my off the cuff guesstimations from memory. I also graduated HS in 1991. My two older brothers ran one of the first mail hubs in the U.S., as a by-product of thier BBS hobby. We had several of the first IBM clones, (i was about 8) the Commodore, the IBM PC-jr....the list goes on... So, now that we've admitted our age.. Blizzard is a smart company. As my post I linked you to points out,(which I have quoted exactly once, btw), they have always provided for the masses. Diablo and Starcraft are perfect examples of this, and WOW was just the same strategy, but with an MMO. Target the masses. Target the average computer. (Which was Vanguards downfall if you ask me) This does not by any means say that WOW is the best game ever. We can't even really say that it is the most successful game ever, without weighing the past vs. the present accurately and without bias. Parachute pants were a big hit in the 80's. I'm sure for a few years they may have even outsold every other type of legwear by leaps and bounds....People wore them because, well, everyone else did. Like all fads, all it takes is for people to decide they are done with it, and it will end. Were parachute pants the best fashion design of all time? Hell no. Were these designers smart to produce a product to meet an emerging trend in fashion? Yes. WOW is not so different. As far as the gear carrot being the best design ever for an MMO? Laughable. Just like parachute pants are not the best design ever for legwear. People play WOW because everyone else does, not because they enjoy chasing a carrot. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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-Mythril- Title: International Man of Mythery Posts: 12,141 Registered: Jan 6, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 11,989 User ID: 61,530	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	"And before someone comes in and says "How do you know they haven't tried them?" That's easy, besides EQ no other game has hit half a million subs, ever, until WoW. That tells me there is a huge population of MMO players that have played WoW and WoW only." Now who is reaching and grasping at illogical straws? WoW pulled people out of AO/AC/AC2/SWG/DAoC/ and EQ to name some. now while there is some overlap in gamers that played those games they weren't all the same 500k people just moving game to game. The subscription numbers support the idea that WoW has been a great game. I won't use the word prove. But they certainly support in a major major way that it has been. There isn't anything to support that it hasn't been other than an individual's opinion. Matter of fact other than critical reviews or subscription numbers there isn't any way to actually support a theory either way. I remember many magazines both paper and online lauding WoW for what it was for years. not just when it came out. How do you prove anything is great? You get a ton of people and make enough noise and there ya go. greatness. -----signature----- Tongue-tied and twisted. Just an earthbound misfit; I. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mythphisto- Hunter; Too many alts to list.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: 1990---3 million users worldwide 1995- 16 million users worldwide (Meridain, December 1995) 2004- 817 million users worldwide (WOW launched) 2010- 2.04 billion users worldwide. You're right..thats only like 700 times more users..not 1000, so much for my off the cuff guesstimations from memory. I am curious as to where you got those numbers from. Edit: Also why you would use M59 as an example when it was the first MMO and had no competition until The Realm came out? While still not valid due to lack of competition, UO or AC would be better examples. At least there was a couple MMOs out there at the time. That was in 1999. -----signature----- Seriously?
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	If you google "internet usage history", you'll get about 14,000,000 hits...in a matter of seconds. Pick a few, they all say pretty much the same thing. I listed Meridian as a benchmark in relation to users, so people who might not be our age can relate the two. It also shows a great deal about how much things changed in the 9 years between its release, and the release of WOW. From 9800/14400/28800 baud modems,to Broadband... From Hardly anyone having a computer, to hardly anyone NOT having a computer. From $4,000 machines with 64 kb of ram and a 286/386 processor, to $500 dollar machines with 4 gig standard, and multi-core chips measuring in gigahertz. And last but not least, MMO's with 10,000 to 100,000 subscribers, to MMO's with millions of subscribers. All of these factors have much more to do with subscription numbers than the program Blizzard wrote, especially the cheaper technology. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: If you google "internet usage history", you'll get about 14,000,000 hits...in a matter of seconds. Pick a few, they all say pretty much the same thing. I figured as much. So then the next question is do you think internet usage has a direct correlation to potential MMO subscriber? My Stepdad and mom (who I lived with) had internet access as far back as 1989. Neither were ever nor ever will be a potential MMO subscriber. My dad and stepmom got their personal computer around 1995 and signed up for AoL, but neither ever were nor ever will be a potential MMO subscriber. My grandparents got their dialup accounts a couple years later. They also never were and never will be a potential MMO subscribers. My brother got his PC in like 1996 and had a dialup account. He never was and never will be a potential MMO subscriber. That is just my immediate family. If I extend that to all the friends I have had over the past 15 years, I can't think of a single one that would ever subscribe to a MMO. -----signature----- Seriously?
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Careful!! Before you ask that, ask how many of the 16 million in 95 were gamers when Meridian launched....(tries to keep Boone off the slippery slope) So, you, your immediate family, my brothers and myself all make up a part of the group that started in the 80's and early 90's. Sweet. Now all you have to do is justify the other 1.997 billion(plus) that have gone online since '90. Begin now. Oh, and if you want to dispute those numbers on usage, I welcome it. What was it you said?..oh.. "I figured as much" -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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kyrv Title: Lord Logicus Posts: 14,420 Registered: Jan 31, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 14,357 User ID: 639,081	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The_Korrigan posted: -Mythril- posted: MMOs require a monthly re-commitment of dollars to their game. By paying every month you are at the very least implying that you are satisfied more than you are dissatisfied. The most intriguing in that to me are the people who constantly pretend the game is crap, Mc Donalds, etc... yet still keep on paying to play it for years and years. I guess it means exactly what you said... that despited their claims, they are still satisfied by their "Mc Donalds" gaming. The Mcdonald's analogy is one of the dumbest things I've read on the internet, and that's saying something. Wow isn't less healthy than other games. It's not popular because there are more franchises in your town. WoW costs the same as other games, and is purchased and accessed in the same way. People don't choose WoW as opposed to staying home and baking their own game, or going out to play a fancy game. They are on a level playing field with all other games. And they stomp them like a rented goalie. -----signature----- CO, LOTRO, RoM, PWI, CoH Dragon Age
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	kyrv posted: The_Korrigan posted: -Mythril- posted: MMOs require a monthly re-commitment of dollars to their game. By paying every month you are at the very least implying that you are satisfied more than you are dissatisfied. The most intriguing in that to me are the people who constantly pretend the game is crap, Mc Donalds, etc... yet still keep on paying to play it for years and years. I guess it means exactly what you said... that despited their claims, they are still satisfied by their "Mc Donalds" gaming. The Mcdonald's analogy is one of the dumbest things I've read on the internet, and that's saying something. [/b]Wow isn't less healthy than other games. It's not popular because there are more franchises in your town. [/b] WoW costs the same as other games, and is purchased and accessed in the same way. [/b]People don't choose WoW as opposed to staying home and baking their own game, or going out to play a fancy game. [/b] They are on a level playing field with all other games. And they stomp them like a rented goalie. Hahaha, what the hell are you talking about? No wonder you hate the analogy so much, you haven't the slightest idea how to interpret it.... They are NOT on a level playing field with all other games. They have 12 million subscribers and a 6 year head start on content. They have a Warcraft "brand" to build on. It is by far the most well known MMO ever produced. WoW is a marketing MACHINE. When you say it is on a level playing field with all other games- what are you referring to exactly? The price? The fact that you can purchase it at an electronics store? The fact that you play it on a PC? That's pretty much where the level playing field ends.... Any other game that is coming out and trying to carve out a customer base for itself has one hell of an uphill battle. It is most definitely NOT a level playing field. -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Oh yes... because companies like SoE aren't marketing machines. EQ2 has the brand of the most successful first generation MMO, EQ, to back it up. EQ2 had Sony for the marketing. EQ2 was released a few days BEFORE WoW, so it has arguably even a small head start. Yet EQ2 totally failed where WoW succeeded. Strange, isn't it? -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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Dums Title: Moderator The mystery flavor Posts: 8,245 Registered: Oct 29, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 7,576 User ID: 732,266	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	keep it civil gals -----signature----- hi
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-Mythril- Title: International Man of Mythery Posts: 12,141 Registered: Jan 6, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 11,989 User ID: 61,530	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: Any other game that is coming out and trying to carve out a customer base for itself has one hell of an uphill battle. It is most definitely NOT a level playing field. Not now. imo most of us who have played WoW for 6 years are waiting. Hoping something better comes along. Willing to jump ship the second something better comes along. That's why Rift which was largely unheralded got such a huge start in it's first month. People are willing to try anything at this point. Even when it was obvious it was basically WoW in a new skin. In the past i'd agree that it was an uphill fight. Not now. As i said in another post. Gamers are fickle. -----signature----- Tongue-tied and twisted. Just an earthbound misfit; I. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mythphisto- Hunter; Too many alts to list.
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	-Mythril- posted: siujoey posted: Any other game that is coming out and trying to carve out a customer base for itself has one hell of an uphill battle. It is most definitely NOT a level playing field. Not now. imo most of us who have played WoW for 6 years are waiting. Hoping something better comes along. Willing to jump ship the second something better comes along. That's why Rift which was largely unheralded got such a huge start in it's first month. People are willing to try anything at this point. Even when it was obvious it was basically WoW in a new skin. In the past i'd agree that it was an uphill fight. Not now. As i said in another post. Gamers are fickle. Agreed, unfortunately I think the "fickle" nature of gamers might make it HARDER for a new game to succeed. WoW has 6 years of polish. New games coming out will undoubtedly have bugs and other growing pains. Fickle gamers may get tired of it and go back to WoW instead of seeing potential and sticking through the necessary adjustments. When competing with WoW in it's current state, there is almost no margin of error. You need to come to the market as bug-free as possible, balanced, content-rich, and hyped. Problem is- all that costs money, LOTS of money. That means you are spending a ton of money just for the chance you will be competitive- a huge risk when you are trying to steal customers from a behemoth. -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	-Mythril- posted: Not now. imo most of us who have played WoW for 6 years are waiting. Hoping something better comes along. Willing to jump ship the second something better comes along. Agreed. Myself, despite being an obvious WoW fan, would gladly leave for something new. But that something new has to have really new, and not another poor attempt at copying WoW which ultimately reveals to be a sub-par copy of it, like not only Rift, but also Warhammer, Conan and others. Why play a copy, when the original is better? A game with not even half the size of the original (vanilla) WoW world and poor content won't make me quit WoW to play it instead. Maybe SW:TOR will do that - if it plays like the KOTOR games, and is done with the same quality, it will be different enough from WoW to be interesting. If, unlike Rift and its cramped world, the world is as big as pretended (one planet = 8 WoW areas, and there are 17 planets), then it's even more interesting. If, unlike Rift, it has rich class/race lore, and it's confirmed SW:TOR has different starter areas and planet depending on your class, and each class has a different story line, then it's even more interesting. My point is, most WoW clones were not just a bit "sub par", they were "obviously sub par". Look at Warhammer. One starter area, one single major city? Conan... same deal, even though the racial lore was a bit better, but the world was cramped and very linear. Rift? Already mentioned, same problems than Warhammer, along with a character development system that gives "false" freedom but reveals only being a nightmare totally impossible to balance. A game where you almost never ask yourself "so, where can I go next? This place, or that place?" will never get my attention for very long. WoW could do better too, but it's still better than any of its clones. LOTRO, the most successful "WoW clone", is so for a reason... it has rich lore, a big world and some diversity, along with the nowadays required polish, from day one, along with a good franchise of course. -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: Careful!! Before you ask that, ask how many of the 16 million in 95 were gamers when Meridian launched....(tries to keep Boone off the slippery slope) So, you, your immediate family, my brothers and myself all make up a part of the group that started in the 80's and early 90's. Sweet. Now all you have to do is justify the other 1.997 billion(plus) that have gone online since '90. Begin now. lol and you obviously missed the point. There may be 700x more internet users during that time frame, but there is not 700x more available MMO subscribers. Internet User doe not equal potential MMO subscriber. Not only that you still have not acknowledged competition into the equation lol. GutterSludge posted: Oh, and if you want to dispute those numbers on usage, I welcome it. What was it you said?..oh.. "I figured as much" I am not arguing internet usage numbers and I never was. -----signature----- Seriously?
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kyrv Title: Lord Logicus Posts: 14,420 Registered: Jan 31, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 14,357 User ID: 639,081	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The_Korrigan posted: Oh yes... because companies like SoE aren't marketing machines. EQ2 has the brand of the most successful first generation MMO, EQ, to back it up. EQ2 had Sony for the marketing. EQ2 was released a few days BEFORE WoW, so it has arguably even a small head start. Yet EQ2 totally failed where WoW succeeded. Strange, isn't it? Was WoW just gifted 12 million subs? Didn't they start, like any other game, with an alpha product and 0 subs? I understand people resent Blizzard, I don't understand being in denial about it. I'm hardly Blizzard's biggest fan, but they made a quality product as determined by people voting with their wallets (not people like me complaining about them on message boards). poster posted: People play WOW because everyone else does, not because they enjoy chasing a carrot. I'm not sure people view themselves as chasing a carrot, or they have fun while they are doing it. What's the point of playing? I don't know, what's the point of watching Housewives from some place? To get enjoyment. Your reason for 12 million players doesn't hold much water to be honest. Seems made up. Did YOU play WoW just because everyone else did? You don't have a gaming mind of your own? You didn't enjoy it? -----signature----- CO, LOTRO, RoM, PWI, CoH Dragon Age
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Honestly, AC's populations were dwindling, and I was looking for something new to do..(ironic isn;t it..as many are now looking for something new) Having become disgusted with UCM and Turbine's lack of enforcement of their own rules in AC, I chose the Blizzard product for 3 reasons. 1. People. It was the newest and latest game, and many people from many genres were playing it. Cool. No more trying to strike up a conversation in a dungeon with a bot. 2. Blizzard. Having played Diablo 1 and 2, and SC, I knew that Blizz had no quams handing out permabans to cheaters. 3. I knew my computer at the time would run the product well. I decided WOW was going to be my "new" game of choice before ever even playing it. Did I have fun? Sure I did. Of course, I had to be creative and find ways to progress other than the "forced grouping model", as I was already completely through with guilds before ever even logging in to WOW... Who knows...If turbine would have banned UCM's from day one, I might not have ever even thought about WOW...Ultima Online was a blast..but when options other than "2 d and a half" we out there, I just couldn't do UO anymore. What did NOT happen was a moment where I stopped in my tracks and thought, "This is the best MMO ever!!!"... I will say that over the years, Blizzard has been my favorite Developer, and without a doubt the smartest company to ever hit the scene. They market like no other MMO ever has. Best ever? If I were making a top 3 list, AC and UO would alternate between 1 and 2, for every aspect possible in an MMO except rule enforcement, and character restoration.. where Blizzard and the permaban, along with a willingness/ability to restore lost items(other developers have always just said, "A bug caused you to lose an item? Tough #$%@") wins hands down. Those two areas, however, are far from equivocating to the "best MMO ever". -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: Internet User doe not equal potential MMO subscriber. Boone, you cannot have one without the other. Of course it does. /chuckle. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: Boone-Eldar posted: Internet User doe not equal potential MMO subscriber. Boone, you cannot have one without the other. Of course it does. /chuckle. Stating so does not make it true. I have already shown just with my immediate family it is not. -----signature----- Seriously?
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: Stating so does not make it true. I have already shown just with my immediate family it is not. And even if it was true (which I don't believe it is), it still doesn't explain why WoW literally crushed EQ2, a game with as much if not more potential and similar monetary backup and marketing power. Except, of course, if you accept that WoW just... did it better. -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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Arcilite_I Title: VN's Most Wanted Posts: 34,414 Registered: Jan 27, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 33,674 User ID: 633,598	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The_Korrigan posted: Boone-Eldar posted: Stating so does not make it true. I have already shown just with my immediate family it is not. And even if it was true (which I don't believe it is), it still doesn't explain why WoW literally crushed EQ2, a game with as much if not more potential and similar monetary backup and marketing power. Except, of course, if you accept that WoW just... did it better. LOL you're such a fanboy dude. Blizzard not only came out with WoW years after the MMO industry established itself but it had all that time to learn from the mistakes and advancements made. All Blizzard did was ctrl+c the solid and well tested aspects of other MMOs and combine it with lore from one of their RTS games. You act like they reinvented the genre or something. -----signature----- PvPing since 1977
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Really? You're semi-insulting post once again evades the main point. How does this explain that a veteran of the industry, who made EQ1 and had a lot of experience, a valuable and well known franchise, a lot of money and marketing backup, got beaten by total noobs in the MMORPG category then, when the two games were released the same month in November 2004? -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	LOL....Boone.. It is proof through contradiction... I don't have to prove a mathematical statement is true or false for all real numbers, by working it with every possible real number imaginable...I just have to find the one situation where it is not true, and then can state that no, it is not true for all real numbers. I don't have to prove that every Internet user is an MMO player. All I have to prove is that to be an MMO player, you must have access to the internet. The percentages take care of the rest. Note: You keep saying "Potential" MMO player...to which I could state that every single human being on the planet is a "potential" MMO player, and the first step to becoming so is having internet connect-ability. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Arcilite_I Title: VN's Most Wanted Posts: 34,414 Registered: Jan 27, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 33,674 User ID: 633,598	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Because when they ctrl-c'd the rest of the industry's work they ctrl-v'd it into a fantasy world that could be conquered by a patient 6yr old. Of course you're going to come back with "How come every 6yr old that played didn't raid or have HWL" and that's simple. Not every 6yr old WANTED to do that or even knew it was part of the game. So yeah. -----signature----- PvPing since 1977
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	It still doesn't explain how the veteran, with years of observation and data about what the player looks for in such a game, got utterly crushed by the newbie who was only doing RTS games before. The "WoW was made for 6 year old" argument is always amusing by the way, considering all who post here played (and paid for) the game for several years... -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Arcilite_I posted: The_Korrigan posted: Boone-Eldar posted: Stating so does not make it true. I have already shown just with my immediate family it is not. And even if it was true (which I don't believe it is), it still doesn't explain why WoW literally crushed EQ2, a game with as much if not more potential and similar monetary backup and marketing power. Except, of course, if you accept that WoW just... did it better. LOL you're such a fanboy dude. Blizzard not only came out with WoW years after the MMO industry established itself but it had all that time to learn from the mistakes and advancements made. All Blizzard did was ctrl+c the solid and well tested aspects of other MMOs and combine it with lore from one of their RTS games. You act like they reinvented the genre or something. Yet no one else has managed to accomplish this incredibly easy task? -----signature----- Seriously?
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Korrigan, It is most likely that it was different, rather than better. Parachute pants outsold Levis for a period in the 80's...Because they were different. Because it was a change from the norm. No one, however, will argue that they are a better product. Edit: I will admit, that one of the lures for me regarding WOW was the ability to finally play the "bad guys" in an MMO.. Up until then players were always the "Humans and their allies" versus the NPC "orcs and trolls"... different...not necessarily better. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: LOL....Boone.. It is proof through contradiction... I don't have to prove a mathematical statement is true or false for all real numbers, by working it with every possible real number imaginable...I just have to find the one situation where it is not true, and then can state that no, it is not true for all real numbers. I don't have to prove that every Internet user is an MMO player. All I have to prove is that to be an MMO player, you must have access to the internet. The percentages take care of the rest. Note: You keep saying "Potential" MMO player...to which I could state that every single human being on the planet is a "potential" MMO player, and the first step to becoming so is having internet connect-ability. lol you know full well that most people do not even have an interest in playing video games, much less a massive multiplayer with a monthly fee. But to admit such would toss your whole theory in the garbage so I don't expect you to do so. Still haven't heard any comment on competition being left out of the equation... -----signature----- Seriously?
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Arcilite_I Title: VN's Most Wanted Posts: 34,414 Registered: Jan 27, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 33,674 User ID: 633,598	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The_Korrigan posted: It still doesn't explain how the veteran, with years of observation and data about what the player looks for in such a game, got utterly crushed by the newbie who was only doing RTS games before. The "WoW was made for 6 year old" argument is always amusing by the way, considering all who post here played (and paid for) the game for several years... Where did I say it was made for a 6yr old? -----signature----- PvPing since 1977
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: Parachute pants outsold Levis for a period in the 80's...Because they were different. Because it was a change from the norm. Yet one of you guy's main argument is that WoW only copy/pasted what other did before... therefore, they just copy/pasted the "norm". Could it be that your analogy doesn't make any sense and is like comparing apples to oranges? GutterSludge posted: No one, however, will argue that they are a better product. In your opinion only. It's not because you personally don't like something that it's a bad/worse product, specially when all facts oppose your opinion. Arcilite_I posted: Where did I say it was made for a 6yr old? I really don't have to answer to that, one just have to scroll up the forum thread to see it. -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Ok Boone, If there weren't more MMO players now than then, 12 million subs for ONE MMO would be literally impossible. Growth in number of users directly correlates with growth in MMO players, period. You can keep denying this, but your denial will not change the fact. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Korrigan, you have a choice... you are playing/have played EQ... choices EQ2..or WOW... EQ 2 is the "norm"...WOW is "different"... Walah. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Please answer to Boone's question about competition. 3 games in 1999 when EQ and AC1 were released after UO. Dozens and dozens of games today. Yet WoW still literally crushes them all. How comes? -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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Arcilite_I Title: VN's Most Wanted Posts: 34,414 Registered: Jan 27, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 33,674 User ID: 633,598	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The_Korrigan posted: Arcilite_I posted: Where did I say it was made for a 6yr old? I really don't have to answer to that, one just have to scroll up the forum thread to see it. No really, please quote where I said WoW is made for 6yr olds. I don't see it anywhere. -----signature----- PvPing since 1977
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Arcilite_I Title: VN's Most Wanted Posts: 34,414 Registered: Jan 27, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 33,674 User ID: 633,598	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: Voila. -----signature----- PvPing since 1977
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: Korrigan, you have a choice... you are playing/have played EQ... choices EQ2..or WOW... EQ 2 is the "norm"...WOW is "different"... Walah. That would make sense if WoW wasn't based on the EQ model. Sadly, it is totally based on EQ's class/level/endgame/dungeon/raid model. Actually, EQ2 and WoW are based on exactly the same model... yet the noob still bests the veteran, and not only just a little bit. Now answer to Boone's question: The_Korrigan posted: 3 games in 1999 when EQ and AC1 were released after UO. Dozens and dozens of games today. Yet WoW still literally crushes them all. How comes? The number of potential player augmented according to you. The number of games too, though. Yet WoW still wins. -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The_Korrigan posted: Please answer to Boone's question about competition. 3 games in 1999 when EQ and AC1 were released after UO. Dozens and dozens of games today. Yet WoW still literally crushes them all. How comes? 1999- 248 million internet users worldwide.(few games) 2010- 2 billion users worldwide. (more games) Simple. Why is Blizz on top? Advertising? (this is huge..no other MMO does this) Playability on the simplest machines of today? Great marketing....does not mean best product ever. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: Ok Boone, If there weren't more MMO players now than then, 12 million subs for ONE MMO would be literally impossible. Growth in number of users directly correlates with growth in MMO players, period. You can keep denying this, but your denial will not change the fact. lol I am not denying it at all. I am saying that the "percentages" that I fail to understand are no where close to what you are claiming them to be. There is not 1000x or 700x more subscribers to pull from now than there were when MMOs first hit the market. There is also a lot more competition than there was when MMOs first hit the market. All of this is in response to this post in case you have lost your train of thought. GutterSludge posted: I disagree. If there are 1,000,000 fish in the ocean, and I catch 100,000...(like # of computer users 10-15 years ago, and AC's sub numbers, or UO's, or pick an MMO) Or there are a billion fish in the ocean, and you catch 12 million....(like # of computer users today) Who is the better fisherman? Don't let that 12 million number cause you to forget how to calculate a simple percentage. (If you ever knew) -----signature----- Seriously?
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: The_Korrigan posted: Please answer to Boone's question about competition. 3 games in 1999 when EQ and AC1 were released after UO. Dozens and dozens of games today. Yet WoW still literally crushes them all. How comes? 1999- 248 million internet users worldwide.(few games) 2010- 2 billion users worldwide. (more games) Simple. And WoW still reaps most of that increased player based, despite the tremendous competition, and keeps on doing it. Even back in 2004 when WoW was released, you had dozens of MMORPGs on the market, and most were EQ based class/level/endgame games. It's simple, as you said. All what others did, WoW simply did it better. That's why people go there instead of going to EQ2 or any other similar competitor. -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone.. How many more are there, then? Seriously..you actually believe what you are posting..? -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: The_Korrigan posted: Please answer to Boone's question about competition. 3 games in 1999 when EQ and AC1 were released after UO. Dozens and dozens of games today. Yet WoW still literally crushes them all. How comes? 1999- 248 million internet users worldwide.(few games) 2010- 2 billion users worldwide. (more games) Simple. Why is Blizz on top? Advertising? (this is huge..no other MMO does this) Playability on the simplest machines of today? Great marketing....does not mean best product ever. Weird I do not recall Blizzard's marketing being any different than any other MMO for the first 3 or so years. I was not until they pulled in millions and millions of subscribers that you started seeing Mr T ads. Selective memory on your part? I think so. Next straw? -----signature----- Seriously?
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The_Korrigan posted: How does this explain that a veteran of the industry, who made EQ1 and had a lot of experience, a valuable and well known franchise, a lot of money and marketing backup, got beaten by total noobs in the MMORPG category then, when the two games were released the same month in November 2004? 1) SoE fanboys would have already been split. The (somewhat) successful SWG was just released in June 2003! They had a 500k EQ1 base to work off of. Blizzard on the other hand had NO competing MMO in it's own stable, but plenty of Warcraft players to sell to. This was a major reason (I think) that it introduced so many new players to the MMO genre. 2) Having the money to market a product and actually spending that money on marketing are 2 different things. Doing so wisely and effectively is still another separate consideration. Blizzard is king here. Hell, they even got a 30 minute commercial for WoW from South Park. EQ2's marketing spend was never even in the same neighborhood as WoW's. 3) Your "total noobs" comment implies that Blizz was some new game developer. Not so. New to the MMO genre sure- but that may have aided in it's success. People were looking for something new even then. All of a sudden, you see this new game from an established, legitimate company with new cartoon-ish graphics and big hype. -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	For the first few years they were the "parachute pants" of the genre. A fad, so to speak. Which one of you two came to WOW because "It was the best MMO of all time"??? Korrigan, we all know you feel that title goes to UO...why are you arguing different now? Korrigan, Boone... I know both of you have played other MMO's...stop for a second and think about making a list of the "best" games in specific areas. Combat system... Loot system... Crafting... etc etc... You both know damn well that WOW will be #1 in very few of these categories.... Take off the fanboy hat and think for just a second.. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	GutterSludge posted: Boone.. How many more are there, then? Seriously..you actually believe what you are posting..? I have no idea how many there are and really it does not matter. The amount of people that want to play a MMO has grown over the years. I am not disputing this and it is common sense. Let me lay this out simply: 1. The total amount of people playing MMOs is the market. 2. The percentage of people playing whatever MMO is the respective MMO's marketshare. 3. The MMO with the highest marketshare is the most successful MMO. 4. World of Warcraft currently holds a vast majority of the current marketshare and has done so for over 6 years. -----signature----- Seriously?
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	You have to link me that post where I said that WoW is the best MMORPG OF ALL TIMES. Don't search, you won't find it. Also, the difference between you and me, gutter, is that while my "top 2" are Asheron's Call and Ultima Online, I'm able to accept those games have aged and that another game, WoW, did many things just right. I'm also able to accept that despite back then, AC1 and UO are superior to EQ for me, EQ got more subscribers and therefore definitely did something right too. All I have said (and still say) is WoW definitely did things right to access to such popularity, even if we disregard the Asian subscribers and only focus on US/EU customers. And this has nothing to do with marketing, but with game design, both for content and for polish. You don't attract flies with vinegar, says a saying in my country. -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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Arcilite_I Title: VN's Most Wanted Posts: 34,414 Registered: Jan 27, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 33,674 User ID: 633,598	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The_Korrigan posted: You have to link me that post where I said that WoW is the best MMORPG OF ALL TIMES. Don't search, you won't find it. lol you can't even troll w/o copying someone else's posts....do you have any original thoughts of your own Also ISO where I said WoW was made for 6yr olds. Or you could just admit that I never said that and you only put words in my mouth because you know I'm right. I'll settle for either one. -----signature----- PvPing since 1977
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siujoey Posts: 4,944 Registered: Dec 26, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,893 User ID: 575,651	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The_Korrigan posted: You have to link me that post where I said that WoW is the best MMORPG OF ALL TIMES. Don't search, you won't find it. So you would be arguing the same point as Gutter and I: Just because it is the MOST POPULAR does not mean it is the BEST QUALITY. There are other factors at play here. -----signature----- I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Arcilite_I posted: Because when they ctrl-c'd the rest of the industry's work they ctrl-v'd it into a fantasy world that could be conquered by a patient 6yr old. Copy/paste into a world a 6 yr old can conquer. Or do you deny it's you who posted that? Now we can go back to serious argumentation, maybe? -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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Boone-Eldar Title: Infallible Posts: 16,589 Registered: Dec 28, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 16,173 User ID: 580,486	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: The_Korrigan posted: You have to link me that post where I said that WoW is the best MMORPG OF ALL TIMES. Don't search, you won't find it. So you would be arguing the same point as Gutter and I: Just because it is the MOST POPULAR does not mean it is the BEST QUALITY. There are other factors at play here. See here what you guys don't get in your myopic world with blinders on. It may not be the highest quality game to you, or gutter or heck even me, but it is to millions and millions of more people than it is any other MMO. Quality is a subjective term in the MMO world. -----signature----- Seriously?
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster Posts: 21,660 Registered: Jul 17, '01 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 21,292 User ID: 255,861	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	siujoey posted: So you would be arguing the same point as Gutter and I: Just because it is the MOST POPULAR does not mean it is the BEST QUALITY. "Of all times" doesn't means the same than "of its time". What was true 10+ years ago is no longer true today, or one could also argue that the Mustang fighter during the second world war is a better war plane than modern F18 or other jet fighters. I prefer the Mustang for nostalgic reasons, but the F18 is definitely the better plane. Give me a game modeled on UO, but with the same progress that WoW gave to the EQ genre, and I will subscribe without even thinking twice. Until then, a Ford T is not a better car than a Ferrari Enzo. -----signature----- SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation). LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually. WoW: Both accounts canceled for now. GW2: Future Warrior.
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Ok, now that "best of all time" is out of the way, lets talk "marketshare". If there were exponentially fewer computer users, and thus exponentially fewer MMO players "back in the day"...then it is insane to just look at "12 million subscribers" today and say WOW is the most successful ever, without comparing current day versus yesteryear. Lets look at money for a second. If a person made 5 million dollars in 1900....how would that compare with a person making 100 million today? This is a tough comparison, but it is not hard to understand that the person in 1900 made more money, in a relative sense, than the 100 mill of today. Refusing to look at MMO subscriptions in the same manner is just flat out folly. I'm not saying WOW is not a great game. I'm not saying Blizzard is not a smart company. I'm not saying WOW is not successful... I'm saying that to state that it is the "best, most successful" game of all time, based on the "12 million subscribers" number, is a fools errand. There is much more to it than "well they have the most subscribers ever"... -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Arcilite_I Title: VN's Most Wanted Posts: 34,414 Registered: Jan 27, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 33,674 User ID: 633,598	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	The_Korrigan posted: Arcilite_I posted: Because when they ctrl-c'd the rest of the industry's work they ctrl-v'd it into a fantasy world that could be conquered by a patient 6yr old. Copy/paste into a world a 6 yr old can conquer. Or do you deny it's you who posted that? Now we can go back to serious argumentation, maybe? Saying something is made for a 6yr old and can be conquered by a 6yr old are two completely different things. -----signature----- PvPing since 1977
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Isoke Posts: 2,433 Registered: Apr 26, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 2,398 User ID: 672,720	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Sigh. The original idea behind this thread was pretty interesting. Now it's just a pie-fight between egos. Boring =/ -----signature----- (none)
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Ugh_Lancelot Title: Ooo...bouncy! Posts: 5,492 Registered: Jun 17, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 5,446 User ID: 689,383	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	Boone-Eldar posted: GutterSludge posted: Boone-Eldar posted: Internet User doe not equal potential MMO subscriber. Boone, you cannot have one without the other. Of course it does. /chuckle. Stating so does not make it true. I have already shown just with my immediate family it is not. Sample size lol... [edit] Good grief. Some of you people have turned circular arguments into an art form. -----signature----- WoW and DAoC - Too many alts to count Charter Member - Altaholics Anonymous
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loztpassword Posts: 112 Registered: Jul 2, '09 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 112 User ID: 1,362,313	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	It seems this thread has gone off into WoW success reasons? I think the most glaringly obvious one, aside from all this talk about growth of internet availability, "noob" MMORPG company, or amount of competition today....... WoW made the MMORPG accessible to all types of gamers, particularly the solo-minded casual. With Blizz's money, and previous game design ability backing them up, they made a game that utilized their slick, professional touch all over. But the linchpin to the explosive success was that it made MMORPG accessible to casuals. Previous to WoW, the MMORPG was a niche market. Even with the success of EQ, the most widely know MMORPG in gamer circles pre-WoW; most casual gamers belonged on consoles only. And the idea of playing a CPU game... and online at that! was not even in their realm of consideration. WoW changed all that. It wasn't the advertising. It wasn't the polished game. It wasn't the lore. It was ALL of them, wrapped up in a package that a variety of gamers could play and enjoy a variety of ways. You got cat-herdi... I mean "raiding" for the hardcore PvE types from EQ. You got a variety of dungeons beneath raid level. 5-man sized, with variety ranging from difficult to relatively easy. Appealing to a large cross section of middle-skill level players. Giving them ability to PvE dungeon play, with smaller groups and less stringent requirements (than even some previous MMORPGs). You got rail-easy casual XPing. No "punishing" death penalties like corpse retrieval, or losing XP. Tons of mobs, tons of quests, all soloable and quite easily. Fairly quick level progression. All of these REALLY appeal to the casual players who, in previous MMORPGs, would have been left far far behind. Now, you can argue how this has dumbed down the gene pool in MMORPGs. You might be, and probably are, right. For better or worse, yeah? But this attraction to casuals, while also still offering some apples for the "hardcore" types, made for a very attractive game. I didn't even mention the PvP stuffs, which also ran the gamut of variety of styles being possible. It's easy to forget now, nearly 7 years after WoW's arrival, just how niche and difficult the MMORPG used to be. -----signature----- Throw away your desires and treasures, and make sure to burn all the maps. MMORPG Mystaquetz in various forms.
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kyrv Title: Lord Logicus Posts: 14,420 Registered: Jan 31, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 14,357 User ID: 639,081	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	^^^ Not quoted for brevity, but really good post. Over the years people try to make one line and incorrect quips that explain away WoW's success and for some reason try to detract from it. They made the MMORPG genre their b*tch and made them like it. For a variety of reasons, but if we want to simplify, they made a game that people wanted to play. And still do. -----signature----- CO, LOTRO, RoM, PWI, CoH Dragon Age
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GutterSludge Posts: 4,620 Registered: Nov 6, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 4,545 User ID: 1,091,587	Subject: In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
	kyrv posted: .... they made a game that people wanted to play, but lost that vision and subsequently released Cataclysm. fixed. -----signature----- Guttersludge People just can't handle the truth. NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.." njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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