Quazimortal posted:

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But hey, at least Ghostcrawler likes the game. Right?

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Nakal posted:

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It was a let down.  Which is sad, because there is some of Cata that I did like.  But the endgame was fubared, and the dev team with the wild swings with the nerf bats with lack of testing (through hotfixes instead of being tested properly) ...  just made me quit.It is sad too, because overall I think WoW is (was?) an excellent game and it hooked me for over 6 years.  It is just sad the direction Ghostcrawler decided to take with Cata endgame.  Admittedly I did like the revamped world to level in - I had fun with that. Made it to 60 with all the new content and was happy overall, but in the end, what did my toons have to look forward too at 85?

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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I had such high hopes for Cataclysm. I actually hyped it a bit to friends, and was set on returning. It seemed like the expansion that would renew the game once again. I had left for quite awhile in WoTLK, but had just come back before the expansion (to get ready for it), and I was actually enjoying myself immensely. Then they released the expansion, and while I tried to enjoy it, leveling with the new Classic quests left a bad taste in my mouth after awhile because of the seemingly heavy handed use of phasing EVERYWHERE - the low level dungeons were more enjoyable to level through, but repetitive and bland still, and then they reduced xp in those. Classes received what seemed like incredibly arbitrary changes, and then again the week after. Huge overreactions by the developers, and in cases extreme corrections utilized rather than the incremental steps we used to see. Class Customization was made even more cookie cutter and reduced in scope. Changes that you would expect, like a fully customizable interface, left on the sidelines. End game dungeon queue times skyrocketed. For me, there was seemingly little to enjoy about the game, and lots that suddenly made me go, "wtf..."

It's the same game, sure, but it's a bit removed from what it was that I no longer find the game satisfying or enjoyable - even after a long break. I don't think I've ever hoped so hard for an expansion that actually chased me from the game entirely. I really hope they hotfix and patch the hell out of it while I'm away, and that the 'b' team can get a grip on the leash of the monster they have that currently seems to be dragging them behind it while they scramble to get on their feet. Too bad Ghostcrawler keeps verbally tripping them.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Still playing, still enjoying it.

And I think people complaining about the supposed difficulty of the heroic dungeons have long term memory problems, and don't remember how those dungeons were in TBC and even in WotLK when they started, wearing crappy quest gear, wiping in HoL, Occulus or UP. They got too used to the "easy mode" artificially created during WotLK by the careless distribution of epic gear which progressively turned 5 man dungeon a mindless faceroll.

I think that blaming Cataclysm, Blizzard or Ghostcrawler is only a placebo reason. Could the real reason simply be that after 6+ years of WoW, some people simply have enough of it?

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Still playing, still enjoying it.

And I think people complaining about the supposed difficulty of the heroic dungeons have long term memory problems, and don't remember how those dungeons were in TBC and even in WotLK when they started, wearing crappy quest gear, wiping in HoL, Occulus or UP. They got too used to the "easy mode" artificially created during WotLK by the careless distribution of epic gear which progressively turned 5 man dungeon a mindless faceroll.

I think that blaming Cataclysm, Blizzard or Ghostcrawler is only a placebo reason. Could the real reason simply be that after 6+ years of WoW, some people simply have enough of it?

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Korr, come on now, you're lying to yourself, look around you. The expansion was bad. Most of us here WANTED to like the expansion. Most of us here WERE enjoying the game right before the expansion.

I've been playing MMOs long enough, and have been through plenty of them now. Hell, I've been bored and quit plenty of them by now. I know the difference between, wow, I'm bored of this game because I've played it too long and it's old. And, wow, I hate playing this game now. Most MMOs don't even hit the 2nd category for me, they just get older and the 1st category gets stronger. WoW used to be in the former category off and on, but with Cataclysm it has vaulted wholly into the latter. Also, you're the one with memory problems, as I've highlighted before by digging up past threads on similar time periods to this. Dungeons have not been cried about so loudly for quite some time, looking back to threads at the release of WoTLK and just prior.

And I'll say something else here, since you bring up Rift - I wasn't even going to give that game a try. I hadn't looked at much information on it. Cataclysm had me hook, line and sinker and I was happy to enjoy it for quite some time - until I played it for longer than a week. Then, trying Rift didn't sound so bad. Cataclysm drove me there.

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Boone-Eldar posted:

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I have been unsubbed for a month or so now, but wasn't really playing much for a couple months before that. I would still be playing if the dungeon and raid content played more like WotLK did. I did the whole "hardcore" thing during vanilla and BC, but I actually enjoyed the game the most and had healthy playing habits during WoTLK once I got over the whole people weren't earning their "welfare epics" like the hardcore types did mentality and just enjoyed the game for what it was rather than some epeen contest.

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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Holy crap Boone... did someone hack your VN? You were one of the loudest voices about what a mistake casual epics and WoTLK would be during that Death and Taxes thread and a few others in that same time period.

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Boone-Eldar posted:

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lol I don't think I was necessarily wrong at the time, but once Blizzard went down that road (one I subsequently ended up enjoying) there was no turning back.

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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I still believe you were wrong. Come on now, I think it's obvious that WoTLK didn't hurt subscription numbers, which both you and Broken claimed back then remained to be seen. Hardcore raiding isn't some form of gaming that should be placed on a pedestal, and I still say that, taking my exact words from the Death and Taxes thread, "Either plenty of people see these games as a high form of competition and developers will continue creating an inaccessible end-game that only a few people can or will slog through for some sense of accomplishment, or more people see it my way and want accessible end-game content along with comparable rewards and developers will acquiesce."

We will see now if I'm wrong, maybe content accessibility or inaccessibility really doesn't mean as much as I think. Maybe the end game always needs to be a competition, with smaller guilds always months behind the better and stronger ones, with just a few at the pinnacle. We'll see if they ever release subscription numbers that have gone up. I highly doubt it at this point, unless their development changes. But we'll see.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Still playing, still enjoying it.

And I think people complaining about the supposed difficulty of the heroic dungeons have long term memory problems, and don't remember how those dungeons were in TBC and even in WotLK when they started, wearing crappy quest gear, wiping in HoL, Occulus or UP. They got too used to the "easy mode" artificially created during WotLK by the careless distribution of epic gear which progressively turned 5 man dungeon a mindless faceroll.

I think that blaming Cataclysm, Blizzard or Ghostcrawler is only a placebo reason. Could the real reason simply be that after 6+ years of WoW, some people simply have enough of it? No game is eternal, I stopped Asheron's Call after 6 years because I've been there, done that, and the game was getting old, and also finally a good enough game, WoW, was released to replace it. If Rift had been any good (for me), with more content, a bigger landmass, several cities, more race specific lore, more starter areas, more replayability, I could possibly be playing Rift instead of WoW now. If SW:TOR is good enough, I may also stop playing WoW then when the time comes. I wouldn't mind something new, but for now, WoW still remains the best choice on the market with it's huge landmass, cities, rich racial and class lore, and quality challenging content. I understand though that people who happen to enjoy Rift, for whom Rift is "good enough", have stopped playing WoW after 6+ years of "the same".

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GrimTempest posted:

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personally i like harder content. so that wasn't my complaint at all but i know alot of people didn't like the change. my biggest issues was the story and the content post 80 just wasn't interesting to me and of course all the crazy changes that seemed like random try this/try that stuff that seemed to have no real direction or thought behind them.

i'm actually pretty surprised at how this poll went, i knew alot of people weren't happy with the expansion but i hadn't realized it was quite this bad. i've unsubbed from wow myself. i've got a rift subscription going but i'm not sure if i'll keep it open or not. i'm really half tempted to resub to asherons call for a while.

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GrimTempest posted:

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personally i like harder content. so that wasn't my complaint at all but i know alot of people didn't like the change. my biggest issues was the story and the content post 80 just wasn't interesting to me and of course all the crazy changes that seemed like random try this/try that stuff that seemed to have no real direction or thought behind them.

i'm actually pretty surprised at how this poll went, i knew alot of people weren't happy with the expansion but i hadn't realized it was quite this bad. i've unsubbed from wow myself. i've got a rift subscription going but i'm not sure if i'll keep it open or not. i'm really half tempted to resub to asherons call for a while.

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Turumbar-HG posted:

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I'm not surprised at the poll results. Once some of the power-posters here on the boards voiced their opinions on how they felt Cata ruined the game, the sheep started to follow along.

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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Because we always agree so often and so wholly here on the VN's...

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kyrv posted:

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Boone I applaud you for both your change in philosophy and your willingness to discuss it.

That's awesome.


I kind of see it as - I've proven I can do 'hard' content, now I just want to have fun. Maybe that's too simplistic.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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I think people complaining about the supposed difficulty of the heroic dungeons have long term memory problems, and don't remember how those dungeons were in TBC and even in WotLK when they started, wearing crappy quest gear, wiping in HoL, Occulus or UP. They got too used to the "easy mode" artificially created during WotLK by the careless distribution of epic gear which progressively turned 5 man dungeon a mindless faceroll.

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Turumbar-HG posted:

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I'm not surprised at the poll results. Once some of the power-posters here on the boards voiced their opinions on how they felt Cata ruined the game, the sheep started to follow along.

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TruthyID posted:

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The_Korrigan posted:

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I think people complaining about the supposed difficulty of the heroic dungeons have long term memory problems, and don't remember how those dungeons were in TBC and even in WotLK when they started, wearing crappy quest gear, wiping in HoL, Occulus or UP. They got too used to the "easy mode" artificially created during WotLK by the careless distribution of epic gear which progressively turned 5 man dungeon a mindless faceroll.

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This is patently false. In fact, you can still finds threads over at MMO-Champion from as far back as the WotLK beta in which people were concerned that heroics were too easy even in early stages of beta with only blue quality gear.

What happened with Cataclysm went well beyond a simple gear reset, they intentionally made the dungeons harder and more time consuming. For me it wasn't the difficulty that was the problem as much as it was the time investment. Waiting 40 minutes to get into a 2 hour dungeon is just ridiculous.

WoW stopped being something that I could do for 45 minutes or an hour after a long day to relax so I've taken my money elsewhere, as have all of my family and friends that played.

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Spookysheep posted:

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They "can", but they are not going to

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Boone-Eldar posted:

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It was never going to last forever. When it is all said and done is there going to be any other way than to look at WoW as one of the most if not the most successful/influential MMOs of all time?

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kyrv posted:

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Spookysheep posted:

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They "can", but they are not going to

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That's very possible. Blizz is about the cash, of course, I guess my question before can WoW turn it around, is do you think they will replace the B team?

I would think they would if things go south a bit? Maybe it depends on what Blizz feels should be the down slide rate, and when that should start.

I'd have to guess GC shouldn't have much job security today? Key word being "shouldn't" of course.

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Ugh_Lancelot posted:

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kyrv posted:

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Spookysheep posted:

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They "can", but they are not going to

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That's very possible. Blizz is about the cash, of course, I guess my question before can WoW turn it around, is do you think they will replace the B team?

I would think they would if things go south a bit? Maybe it depends on what Blizz feels should be the down slide rate, and when that should start.

I'd have to guess GC shouldn't have much job security today? Key word being "shouldn't" of course.

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Were I Activision, I would be very nervous about a team that was proactively accelerating the otherwise normal decline of my highest revenue title.

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Long_Ranger posted:

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The game is rotting from the inside.

Hardcore players are the first to go.
Casual players don't have the support of hardcores to help them through dungeons.
Casuals start leaving.
Blizzard game easier.
Casuals finish dungeons, get bored, the rest leave.

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Boone-Eldar posted:

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Long_Ranger posted:

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The game is rotting from the inside.

Hardcore players are the first to go.
Casual players don't have the support of hardcores to help them through dungeons.
Casuals start leaving.
Blizzard game easier.
Casuals finish dungeons, get bored, the rest leave.

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I would probably play again if content was nerfed to the ease of WotLK where I could pug through most of it aside from Hardcores, which I don't care about anyways.

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Bremen_Gaheris posted:

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Boone-Eldar posted:

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Long_Ranger posted:

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The game is rotting from the inside.

Hardcore players are the first to go.
Casual players don't have the support of hardcores to help them through dungeons.
Casuals start leaving.
Blizzard game easier.
Casuals finish dungeons, get bored, the rest leave.

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I would probably play again if content was nerfed to the ease of WotLK where I could pug through most of it aside from Hardcores, which I don't care about anyways.

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Yeah, always wondered about why WOTLK design was so wrong from a difficulty point of view. Why make heroics in Cataclysm take inordinate amounts of time and effort for all but the uber-geared and leet guild crowd when those leet crowds aren't going to run them much anyway once they start raiding? And especially when they start raiding hardcore raids...

WOTLK was win in the difficulty department in my opinion. Easy heroics for fast gearing and casual love fests. Easy enough raids that hardcores facerolled them and PUGs were able to do them. And hardmode raids that could be tuned ultra hard for the hardcores so they didn't get bored and had something to lord over casuals. Why was that the wrong way to do it?

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Long_Ranger posted:

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Bremen_Gaheris posted:

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Yeah, always wondered about why WOTLK design was so wrong from a difficulty point of view. Why make heroics in Cataclysm take inordinate amounts of time and effort for all but the uber-geared and leet guild crowd when those leet crowds aren't going to run them much anyway once they start raiding? And especially when they start raiding hardcore raids...

WOTLK was win in the difficulty department in my opinion. Easy heroics for fast gearing and casual love fests. Easy enough raids that hardcores facerolled them and PUGs were able to do them. And hardmode raids that could be tuned ultra hard for the hardcores so they didn't get bored and had something to lord over casuals. Why was that the wrong way to do it?

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I think the two of you have misinterpreted my feelings. I am merely putting forth a potential scenario.

My own feelings are in complete agreement with what you're saying. I loved Lich King because of its difficulty settings - I was a Kingslayer who got to see all the content, and that made me very happy. In Cataclysm, my guild's hardcore guys leveled up too quick, and because the casuals were having difficulty gearing up, they all left. Leaving behind the casuals who couldn't progress, and they all left the game. Blizzard hasn't set the game's difficulty level right.

If they did, the casuals would be able to progress and go the distance.

My final line doesn't really articulate the point I should have made - Casuals leave because there's not enough new content in the game. That, and the game's difficulty setting is what I think is killing the game atm.

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Auenwing posted:

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Is Blizzard losing "significant" enough subscriptions to even think about paying attention to the feedback they are getting from people as they leave?

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Quazimortal posted:

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Is there not an 'other' option you can use to type out your own personal reason?

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GutterSludge posted:

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Yes Quasi, but if Blizzard really wanted viable feedback, they would have a realistic list to choose from, not things like a 5 year old nerf..

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Auenwing posted:

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Sorry to interrupt what was an incredible discussion here, but I want to be very clear about this:

Nothing regarding heroics drove me or my guild from WoW.

There was so much else that Blizzard arbitrarily changed in this expansion that clearly demonstrated somebody there was out of touch with their customers' experience. More than usual. Or that someone there had decided that WoW's age was going to attrit older subscribers and concluded that changing the game to attract new customers was the correct business model.

*snip*

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Quazimortal posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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Yes Quasi, but if Blizzard really wanted viable feedback, they would have a realistic list to choose from, not things like a 5 year old nerf..

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I've never seen a realistic list on reasons for cancelation for any MMO.

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Bremen_Gaheris posted:

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If I had to pick one though it would be healer "redesign" though. They single-handedly turned a role into complete trash overnight. There was so much vitriol toward healers it was sick. It was that more than anything that made dungeons harder, not the stupid, regurgitated mechanics and over the top damage.

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Auenwing posted:

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Bremen_Gaheris posted:

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If I had to pick one though it would be healer "redesign" though. They single-handedly turned a role into complete trash overnight. There was so much vitriol toward healers it was sick. It was that more than anything that made dungeons harder, not the stupid, regurgitated mechanics and over the top damage.

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My husband played a priest as his main. He is an incredibly level-headed, objective scientist. He saw the stories and the posts out here on the boards, and had to "observe" for himself, never trusting anything he could not replicate. His testing complete, I've never seen him so disgusted over a game developer's design decision before. That's the thing that really broke the game for him.

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-Abysmal- posted:

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i've seen defunct guild boards with more action than this board and somehow 81 people voted for this?

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The_Korrigan posted:

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-Abysmal- posted:

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i've seen defunct guild boards with more action than this board and somehow 81 people voted for this?

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Yeah, strange isn't it?

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Bremen_Gaheris posted:

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This poll could have been answered by lurkers who are interested but don't want to get flamed by the old schoolers here who treat this like their own personal Free for all PVP server, flaming new people off the boards before they even have a chance to attempt to join the community (so to speak).

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-Peo- posted:

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So true. This board used to be decent, too.

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Dums posted:

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I bet some people out there think it's decent.

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Dums posted:

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Try not to act like it's ever been different

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-Peo- posted:

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It used to be different. There is no acting involved.

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Dums posted:

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-Peo- posted:

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It used to be different. There is no acting involved.

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Rose colored glasses, sir.

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Riktor_before_IGN posted:

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As to this discussion board, as you can tell by my name which would not convert properly when it changed ownership yeah I found it looong ago. Mostly to discuss Everquest at the time (lasted through till the Planes of Power expansion)

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Dums posted:

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-Peo- posted:

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It used to be different. There is no acting involved.

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Rose colored glasses, sir.

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