Author Topic: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
GutterSludge 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Blizzard has been producing games for a long time. The first Warcraft game hit the shelves in the early/mid 90's. Diablo and Startcraft in the late 90's.

From then to now, computer power and internet speeds have increased exponentially. But the one thing blizzard has always, always done, was insure that their products could be run on the very minimal computer of the day, and by the "average" user of the day.

As computers have become substantially more mainstream over the years, the "average" home computer user has changed dramatically. Before windows, very few people actually had home PC's, and even fewer could make them do much of anything.

With the advent of the graphical interface, computer use has become so simplified over the past 20 years that even young children today are perfectly capable of "pointing and clicking" their way through software.

Through all of this, again, Blizzard has targeted the masses: the average user, with the average system, and met with astounding success.

As the "masses" have increased, the "hardcore computer user" of old has become a scant minority of total computer users. Today we have children, grandmothers, and all ages in between "logging in" to partake in all that the internet has to offer, which brings me to the point of this thread.

Blizzard saw huge success with Diablo, Starcraft, and their sequels. Games designed to be playable by the "average" user, on the "average" machine. After Meridian, UO, AC, and the like gained in popularity over time, WOW was developed for the average user, and for the average computer of the day, following the successful pattern of the past.

As more and more people have joined the home PC user "club", the "skill level" of the "average" user has diminished. Yes, WOW has the highest subscription numbers of all time, but they also have the largest number of home PC users of all time to draw from.

I find it ironic that after the success of this method with all previously published works, including Vanilla, BC, and Wrath, that all of a sudden Blizzard has decided that the playerbase as a whole should be "better than average" just because they released an expansion called Cataclysm.

Sure, in the mid 90's this would have been no problem. The total online gaming "playerbase" was not nearly as diluted by any moron who could click a mouse at that time, and an even more difficult Cata would be no problem for that era.

Current day, however, saw Wrath with the highest subscription numbers in history... (keeping in mind that there are more users than ever before as well)..with relatively easy content, that the total playerbase of today devoured in droves. The same model, working wonders for Blizzard, as it had so many times in the past.

Every day, more people become part of the total online playerbase. Every day, the middle of the bell curve for "skill level" becomes taller and fatter, as "excellent" players are continuously outnumbered by the "average".

Blizzard suddenly, after 20 years of success, decides to move away from their long standing model, and designs an expansion geared more toward the "excellent" side of the bell curve with Cataclysm, when numerically, they should have aimed for the ever growing middle. An ever growing middle that is even more diluted in regard to skill, and I dare say, they should have made content even easier than Wrath, in order to keep consistent with their "model" from the past.

Even though developers may want it to, releasing content that is more difficult (or tedious) in nature will not magically make the "average" become "excellent". It is statistically impossible.

We have had many discussions about this over the past few months, but last night I saw the commercial for Cataclysm, and my daughter (who is 4, going on 34) said "That's a cool looking dragon daddy!!"..which is what prompted this post.

Blizzard advertises to the masses, the "average" if you will, but expects them to be "excellent" just because they bought a disk, and paid a subscription fee. To those of us that have gamed for 20+ years, Cata is not that big of a deal. But we are the group that is at the far right of the "skill" bell curve... the end nearing the zero line in number... which is what Blizzard is going to be looking at in subscription numbers if they do not do something to appease the ever growing, "skill diluted" middle.

That "middle", which propelled Blizzard to where they are today, represents roughly 70% of subscription numbers, and drive the success (or failure) of the game.

The "middle", the "average" is what got Blizzard from A to B, and it appears Blizzard has forgotten that fact.










 

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Unstruck 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
<looks for the "Like" button>

 

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-Peo- 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
World of Ghostcrawler.

Get used to it or GTFO.

 

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Rill_of_WE 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Unstruck posted:
<looks for the "Like" button>

 

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st0rmie 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
The only part of the curve that Cataclysm does not cater for is those who are in the middle but think they are at the top.

 

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JaconKin 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Excellent post Gutter sludge. applause

Part of the issue is that the previous design team/project lead in Kaplan understood the fact that you bring up, it was him who lead the design for Wrath, who wanted heroics to be run in a 45 minute time spawn initially, and that he wanted the majority of the player base to see the content that was being designed, e.g. raids.

Part of the issue you also bring up Gutter and its something I've been stating for a while not only has to do with more computers getting into more peoples homes and thus having more average users. It is the simple fact that those users who have been playing the game for say the full time 6 years. Well in six years times a lot of matters can happen in a persons life, jobs, marriages, kids etc. Simply put, Players who might have been "hardcore" at one point in time slowly but surely become more casual as time and responsibility to real life takes precedence.

Kaplan understood this, people can't plan around a 2 hour heroic dungeon run anymore, and he also understood the simple fact that with X number of subscriptions and only a small percentage of the player base perhaps actually seeing a raid that this wasn't the best model as far as cost to develop vs. percentage of subscribers who actually got to see the content.

Wrath changed all of that. What the current design lead and team though has forgotten is that you don't give a piece of the pie to the masses, then snatch it away from them, or only serve it to a particular customer.



 

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-Mythril- 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
i like the inititial post as it shows a fairly good thought process.

However to the one above me about a 2 hour heroic... it's been since the first few weeks of cat that a heroic has taken me 2 hours. I pug them daily at least 2x a day. sometimes solo. sometimes with a guildie.

i put this thought out there.

If it's taking you two hours then perhaps you might be one of the problem players.
Just one geared player can make the difference in a group of bads.


Every day that gos by the pugs have gotten better. It's fairly rare that i want to poke my eyes out anymore.

 

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Yorptunes 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Yeah a definite good read one I very much agree with. I hope you posted your "post" on the official boards.

I check MMO Champion every day hoping to see GC fired and steps taken to give WOW back to the masses and make all aspects of game play fun again.

Yorp

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
I must be one of the few people here who thought his post was total nonsense. Are you actually arguing for easy and simple content? You seriously think that because the 'average' player doesn't have the gaming experience required to faceroll through the current content right off the bat that those of us who do should suffer through content a total newb can handle?

It's that kind of attitude that is wrong with today's games.

Edit: I suppose my point is that if you continue to develop games that are too easy then people will leave quicker than they would have left if it were too hard.

 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazimortal posted:
Edit: I suppose my point is that if you continue to develop games that are too easy then people will leave quicker than they would have left if it were too hard.


The gamers will leave. The unwashed masses who just want a godmode game to run around in? They'll love it.

That aside it depends on what "hard" means too. Is the game challenging the character, or challenging the player? Lots of people like their character being challenged. These constant "don't stand in the fire, hop on one foot, only attack when the floor is purple, avoid the sunbeams if you have a mana pool, and randomly click some nonstandard ability when your hear the loud gong" idiotic gimmicks aren't challenging the character though, they challenge the player. Frankly when I want to be challenged as a player, I PvP which makes all those stupid gimmicks look as shallow as they really are.

 

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zukat1 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Edit: I suppose my point is that if you continue to develop games that are too easy then people will leave quicker than they would have left if it were too hard.


not sure how to put a quote in here other then copy and paste but the quote above is from quati ( something or another )

Blizzard had record numbers playing with wrath and I'm kinda guessing here with them offering 7 days of play time free to come back to the game they have record numbers leaving. Maybe I'm wrong here but we shall see.

One day hardcore raiders will understand that not everyone can dedicate 5 to 6 hours a day playing the game and still would like to see the endgame content. when it takes 45+ min in que for a heroic as a dps ( yes I have a tank that I can and do que with ). So I get my tanks heroic done , 1 to 2 hours gone in the random .. yea I have a guild but they are not always on and ready to run one when I can play. So the tanking is over.

Now I have to que as Dps and get to wait for 45 min to an hour.. So now I'm looking at 3 hours+ played every night just to get the random points on my toons that I wish to play.. not including the others I want to play but sadly I have no time for.

Why level more then one to level 85 if honestly it's going to take you at least 6+ hours to get anything done on them... This is for you alt aholics... what's the point you can't really play them in endgame till you figure out which one you want to play and dedicate hours sitting in random DGF ( unless tanks or heals ) which most are not ...

kinda just repeating myself here and sorry had a little to drink tonight and honestly can't bring myself to log anymore.. So a little rant here.. again sorry

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Broken_Kayfabe posted:
Quazimortal posted:
Edit: I suppose my point is that if you continue to develop games that are too easy then people will leave quicker than they would have left if it were too hard.


The gamers will leave. The unwashed masses who just want a godmode game to run around in? They'll love it.

That aside it depends on what "hard" means too. Is the game challenging the character, or challenging the player? Lots of people like their character being challenged. These constant "don't stand in the fire, hop on one foot, only attack when the floor is purple, avoid the sunbeams if you have a mana pool, and randomly click some nonstandard ability when your hear the loud gong" idiotic gimmicks aren't challenging the character though, they challenge the player. Frankly when I want to be challenged as a player, I PvP which makes all those stupid gimmicks look as shallow as they really are.



What kind of idiot logic is that? There is no difference between player and character because they are one in the same. Now if you mean the fact that some classes got gimped pretty hard in Cata when you say challenging the character then I still say you have some idiot logic.

Basically what you are saying is that you want to overcome the challenge of a gimped class rather than overcome the challenge of a strategic fight. You are a perfect example of who I hope Blizzard does NOT cater to.

Edit: And for those of you whining about how horrible it is to get into a group as a DPS with the Dungeon Finder, how about you go out and make some friends on your server. It's amazing how quickly a dungeon pops up when you actually put together an actual group. If you can't be bothered to make any friends then my suggestion is to stfu about the queue times or quit the game. It's an MMO for heaven's sake!

 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazimortal posted:
What kind of idiot logic is that? There is no difference between player and character because they are one in the same.


Either you have no concept of what an RPG is, or you can't differentiate between yourself and your character.

Either way is scary. Do you believe the people behind the keyboard are all bulemic female elves too? Or do you just believe that YOU are?

grin

Quazimortal posted:
Now if you mean the fact that some classes got gimped pretty hard in Cata when you say challenging the character then I still say you have some idiot logic.

Basically what you are saying is that you want to overcome the challenge of a gimped class rather than overcome the challenge of a strategic fight.


Actually none of that remotely comes close to what I was saying and in fact makes me think immediately of...


 

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zukat1 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Edit: And for those of you whining about how horrible it is to get into a group as a DPS with the Dungeon Finder, how about you go out and make some friends on your server. It's amazing how quickly a dungeon pops up when you actually put together an actual group. If you can't be bothered to make any friends then my suggestion is to stfu about the queue times or quit the game. It's an MMO for heaven's sake!


Didn't even look at this posters name... I have friends in the game and yes we have different play times so I'm kinda in LFG range... any suggestions other then I need more friends that play the game , sadly the ones I play with feel the same as I do ..

Yeap it's a game that many people play .. not just you people that have more then 3+ hours to play at night. Most of us have lifes outside of the game wrath was the best fit for this part of us. We could run ICC 2 to 3 nights a week and advance .. heroics .. we could actually get geared for ICC through these and had a good time doing this.

Now 1/4% of the wow player base wants harder heroics/raids they cater to you guys and people are dropping subs left and right .. for other games or not ( myself not )

edit: Kayfabe or however your name is spelled you sir/mam are a troll so any post you make I will ignore. I may not post alot but I read the VN abit and you are useless banter.

 

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JaconKin 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
-Mythril- posted:
i like the inititial post as it shows a fairly good thought process.

However to the one above me about a 2 hour heroic... it's been since the first few weeks of cat that a heroic has taken me 2 hours. I pug them daily at least 2x a day. sometimes solo. sometimes with a guildie.

i put this thought out there.

If it's taking you two hours then perhaps you might be one of the problem players.
Just one geared player can make the difference in a group of bads.


Every day that gos by the pugs have gotten better. It's fairly rare that i want to poke my eyes out anymore.


Well figuring I haven't bothered to log in in probably about two weeks and haven't ran a heroic since like the end of December, I haven't ran a heroic in like two months.

Of course I was slammed once before on this very board for making a statement from personal experience and learned that means very little far as what occurs in the game. I'm happy that YOU'VE experienced good pugs and the like and that YOU'RE time in dungeons have been shortened. Yet, lest we also forget that now this has begun to occur pretty soon you'll have people who won't run heroics with people who aren't geared, thus running into the same BS that began to occur in Wrath when people wouldn't take others who didn't have godly Gearscores or some other epeen test. God forbid some people actually have lives and get behind the curve with the rest of the godly peoples in the game. So the two hour is called an estimate time table as far as how long a player might be in a dungeon, can it get shorter, sure, but you still should have X amount of time allotted to finish a dungeon now.

Then of course, I always love it when people complain about matters or offer criticism that this must mean that oh noes, this person must be one of the baddies. silly beatup talk_hand rolling_eyes

Yet, congratulations on focusing on one point of my post while ignoring the rest and completely missing the point Guttersludge was making as well.

How many posts of people have we seen recently, long term players mind you, who have finally decided to cancel their accounts. One of the most important facts to consider is also this is taking place only a FEW months after the release of the expansion? Yet mind you some of these posts are also from people telling us that many people in their guild are unsubbing. Simply put Wrath was catered to a more and ever expanding casual audience of the game. Hardcorers QQed over this like no tomorrow. Cataclysm sees a return to the hardcore experience that was seen in BC. Casuals can't even work up rep for some factions due to lack of dailies, rep items or even mobs to kill in a zone to gain some rep, hell BC didn't even go that far.

Basically the point Gutter and I are making is we'll see how the current game model that the new design lead and design team has taken and see how this design change will continue to effect subscription numbers. All signs are pointing right now to a decline, even with the small sample base here on these boards, one can at least assume that if we here at the VN are seeing people unsubbing, then there are others as well at other community sites. It has been stated several times that the only developer that will cause WoW to die is Blizzard themselves. Only time will tell how much of an effect the current design will have on future subscriptions and which game design Wraths vs. Catas was the better design path to take. Basically in the end, in my own opinion, I think Blizzard is going to find out what subscription base actually pays their bills for them.



 

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Long_Ranger 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
All that can be summed up in one word: hubris. That's what Ghostcrawler and his team had.

But now they're backpedalling faster than a hipster on a fixie heading towards a pit of snakes.

 

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Voqar 
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No clue what sludge is talking about but there's nothing really difficult about cataclysm - most players just suck and are too stupid to do anything remotely challenging.

I do think they dropped the ball with raiding in that they went from making it highly accessible in WOTLK to making it elite only in cata. Doesn't bother me personally, since I can do any raid, but it totally screwed over a lot of people. Bad move, IMO. It's easy enough to provide variety and they failed.

zukat1 posted:
Edit: And for those of you whining about how horrible it is to get into a group as a DPS with the Dungeon Finder, how about you go out and make some friends on your server.


Or do something useful like heal or tank. Anybody can dps - it requires the most minimal effort. If all you can do is the minimum, you deserve the minimum in return.

One thing a lot of people seem to forget is that MMORPGs are social games - multiplayer - with the intent that you do stuff with others. If you just wanna be solo, not join a guild, not develop friends, then it's too bad when you suffer vs social aspects of the game, like grouping or raiding.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Broken_Kayfabe posted:
Quazimortal posted:
What kind of idiot logic is that? There is no difference between player and character because they are one in the same.


Either you have no concept of what an RPG is, or you can't differentiate between yourself and your character.

Either way is scary. Do you believe the people behind the keyboard are all bulemic female elves too? Or do you just believe that YOU are?

grin


There is no difference at all, the character on screen is just the face you are wearing that I see. Just because you might want to act like a retard and pretend you are a magic elf prancing around killing stuff makes no difference to me, you are still just a person sitting in a chair.

Broken_Kayfabe posted:
Quazimortal posted:
Now if you mean the fact that some classes got gimped pretty hard in Cata when you say challenging the character then I still say you have some idiot logic.

Basically what you are saying is that you want to overcome the challenge of a gimped class rather than overcome the challenge of a strategic fight.


Actually none of that remotely comes close to what I was saying and in fact makes me think immediately of...





Sounds to me like I nailed it head on and you can't think of a decent rebuttal.

 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
zukat1 posted:
edit: Kayfabe or however your name is spelled you sir/mam are a troll so any post you make I will ignore.


 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazimortal posted:
There is no difference at all, the character on screen is just the face you are wearing that I see.


So you don't understand the concept of RPG. Gotcha.

Quazimortal posted:
Sounds to me like I nailed it head on and you can't think of a decent rebuttal.


I'm sure you prefer to think that, yup.

grin

 

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NukeMage 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Heroics really aren't that bad now that people have geared up a bit. However if you get in a PUG with a bunch of undergeared terribads then it will prove extremely frustrating.

If Heroics are too frustrating, just do the normals! You still get JP, and on my server the DPS que is 1/3 of the Heroic version.

I personally would rather see some people quit and leave the game than to have it dumbed down any further. Me and my guild are enjoying the content (yes, there was quite a bit of cursing when we first started out however).

Things are only going to get easier once 4.1 hits and ilevel 359 gear is in the JP vendor . . .

 

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NukeMage 
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Gutter put together a really good post, and I think he is right about the middle ground and Blizzard's history of trying to include as many people as possible in their game designs. However, keep in mind that all of these games also had a sizeable group of "hardcore" players who spent hours and hours upon hours trying to be "the best of the best"

There is a similiar type of player here in WoW today (or at least a lot of people who think they are) and they do not want to see the game "dumbed down to the masses" and they want everything to be a hardmode.

I think WotLK had a good balance in their end game, with really easy instances that gave loot badges/points with a couple of them being a bit harder than the others. The raids were moderately difficult yet puggable, and Heroic raids were generally reserved for the accomplished guilds.

I personally would like to see at least SOME hard instances/zones and the other 95% or so of the content pretty easy so I can just faceroll through stuff and just relax and have fun that way too.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Broken_Kayfabe posted:
Quazimortal posted:
There is no difference at all, the character on screen is just the face you are wearing that I see.


So you don't understand the concept of RPG. Gotcha.


I understand perfectly. I understand the fact that no matter the amount of pretend games you wanna play that toon is still the face of a person sitting in a chair in some other part of the world.

Broken_Kayfabe posted:
Quazimortal posted:
Sounds to me like I nailed it head on and you can't think of a decent rebuttal.


I'm sure you prefer to think that, yup.

grin



Thanks for confirming it.

 

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Arcilite_I 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Gutter copy and pasted this off my blog, I demand reparations.

 

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Bremen_Gaheris 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Good post Gutter, well written even though you stole it from Arc apparently...lol.

NukeMage posted:
Gutter put together a really good post, and I think he is right about the middle ground and Blizzard's history of trying to include as many people as possible in their game designs. However, keep in mind that all of these games also had a sizeable group of "hardcore" players who spent hours and hours upon hours trying to be "the best of the best"

There is a similiar type of player here in WoW today (or at least a lot of people who think they are) and they do not want to see the game "dumbed down to the masses" and they want everything to be a hardmode.

I think WotLK had a good balance in their end game, with really easy instances that gave loot badges/points with a couple of them being a bit harder than the others. The raids were moderately difficult yet puggable, and Heroic raids were generally reserved for the accomplished guilds.

I personally would like to see at least SOME hard instances/zones and the other 95% or so of the content pretty easy so I can just faceroll through stuff and just relax and have fun that way too.




I totally agree. Wrath had a great setup. Easy heroics so even those with very limited time could get geared out enough to be "skilled" to do raids. And the raids, Normal mode, were easy enough that everyone had the chance to see the content. And there were Hardmodes of those raids for the hardcore types so they could build their self-esteem from video game accomplishments and still make fun of the scrubs/bads who populate the game and make Blizzard their money.

Absolutely EVERYONE could be happy with Wrath. Now? Not so much in Cata.

 

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kuide 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Cata Heroics are challenging but not fun, I can't dedicate 2-3 hours playing with idiots, and I can't wait in the Q for a new group for 40.

I completed all Heroics very quickly ( Healer ) but I never went back again, I quit..

This is Blizz B team at work, listening to forum elites who think they know best( they don't ).Most players in wow won't even click on a forum.
The A team is either finishing diablo 3 or making the new MMO, I have no idea.

But wow is not fun for me anymore..( not sure how heroics are now, not played in months).

 

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Spookysheep 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
I'm sure Gutter's post will offend the fanbois, but no one can deny that everything he posted is truth.

Tedious and time consuming only = "challenge" to the mentally challenged.

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
This thread will not end well.

Cue the "you guys must really suck and have an IQ lower than your pulse rate" heroes in 3...2...1... (in spite of that argument indicating a reading comprehension failure on their part)

 

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Fedup23 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
They should have shot for the "in-between". Yknow.. produce something a bit harder than WOTLK and a bit less tedious than Cata. They may have been able to satisfy everyone. Does that sound crazy? silly





 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazimortal posted:
I understand perfectly.


No you don't. You don't understand the barest fraction of what I said. You're as far from understanding it as my dachshund is from understanding calculus. This is because you are, in general, a pretty stupid individual.

But, the world needs all types, so I will explain the difference for you. No charge; I don't want you to hurt yourself counting pennies out anyways.

You see, Quazidimwit, things that challenge your character are those things that work inside the core game mechanics. At the most basic, least interesting level, people (in WoW) call them gearchecks. Statistical numbers vs the mob's statistical numbers. That's the most shallow version of it, of course. Other things that qualify are healing, using tanking abilities, and using crowd control abilities. These are abilities the character has, and many people like the challenge that comes with being able to best use character abilities in encounters to overcome a challenge - a tough pull, lots of healing needed, CCing mobs out of the fight, making that key taunt. Yes, it takes the player to do them, but whether or not they can is controlled by the character's definition. You know, the character? The pretty picture on the screen that moves when you hit a key? The character. Something with stats and abilities and such in the game. Very different from the player.

The player is you. Not the character. And challenges directed to the player can be quite different. They include things like puzzles (not so much in WoW), say to finish a quest in a game that doesn't tell you explicitly what, where, when, and how to finish it. It also includes gimmicks in encounters, things that don't actually make any in-game sense but are added to "add challenge" to the encounter because either the system is too limited to require actual character ability use to it, or because the designers aren't imaginative enough to make anything but gearchecks when they try. If you have to run and hide behind an iceblock while the dragon is flying in the air (or die), that's a challenge to the player, not the character. These things are NOT controlled by the definition of the character - any player can (and usually has to) do them regardless of who their character is. Player challenges. Not character.

Now I understand this was probably too much for you, a genuinely unintelligent individual, to comprehend, and you'll try to dismiss it with some glib insult because your pride's been hurt. That's quite all right, feel free, if it makes your small mind relax a bit. No skin off my butt. After all, if there weren't people like you around, how would the rest of us know that we are better than average?

grin

 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Fedup23 posted:
They should have shot for the "in-between". Yknow.. produce something a bit harder than WOTLK and a bit less tedious than Cata. They may have been able to satisfy everyone. Does that sound crazy? silly


I think they DID shoot for that. My impression of their mindset was that the regulars were for regular players and the heroics for the top players, until they inevitably nerf them (as we all knew they would).

Unfortunately they don't seem to have realized that 90% of the players think they ARE the top players.

It's not a simple problem with a linear solution anyways. There's multiple problems with the system (not the least of which is the fact they went and made pretty much every class simply less fun) that are distorting the situation, magnifying the problems, or both.

 

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Sprawl-zero1eye- 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Good post, Gutter.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Broken_Kayfabe posted:
Quazimortal posted:
I understand perfectly.


No you don't. You don't understand the barest fraction of what I said. You're as far from understanding it as my dachshund is from understanding calculus. This is because you are, in general, a pretty stupid individual.

But, the world needs all types, so I will explain the difference for you. No charge; I don't want you to hurt yourself counting pennies out anyways.

You see, Quazidimwit, things that challenge your character are those things that work inside the core game mechanics. At the most basic, least interesting level, people (in WoW) call them gearchecks. Statistical numbers vs the mob's statistical numbers. That's the most shallow version of it, of course. Other things that qualify are healing, using tanking abilities, and using crowd control abilities. These are abilities the character has, and many people like the challenge that comes with being able to best use character abilities in encounters to overcome a challenge - a tough pull, lots of healing needed, CCing mobs out of the fight, making that key taunt. Yes, it takes the player to do them, but whether or not they can is controlled by the character's definition. You know, the character? The pretty picture on the screen that moves when you hit a key? The character. Something with stats and abilities and such in the game. Very different from the player.

The player is you. Not the character. And challenges directed to the player can be quite different. They include things like puzzles (not so much in WoW), say to finish a quest in a game that doesn't tell you explicitly what, where, when, and how to finish it. It also includes gimmicks in encounters, things that don't actually make any in-game sense but are added to "add challenge" to the encounter because either the system is too limited to require actual character ability use to it, or because the designers aren't imaginative enough to make anything but gearchecks when they try. If you have to run and hide behind an iceblock while the dragon is flying in the air (or die), that's a challenge to the player, not the character. These things are NOT controlled by the definition of the character - any player can (and usually has to) do them regardless of who their character is. Player challenges. Not character.

Now I understand this was probably too much for you, a genuinely unintelligent individual, to comprehend, and you'll try to dismiss it with some glib insult because your pride's been hurt. That's quite all right, feel free, if it makes your small mind relax a bit. No skin off my butt. After all, if there weren't people like you around, how would the rest of us know that we are better than average?

grin



What a bunch of blah blah blah all to prove you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Still thinking that magical elf is it's very own real person eh? Sorry to tell you that that character is still you! A challenge to the character is a challenge to the player no matter how pretty you wanna dress up the words.

Basically what you are saying here is that you can't tell the difference between yourself and a magical elf running along your computer screen, how very sad for you.

Edit: Btw, I know you think it's hard to move out of fire but I promise you all that is required is to press a button for 2 or 3 seconds.

 

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Bremen_Gaheris 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Broken_Kayfabe posted:
Fedup23 posted:
They should have shot for the "in-between". Yknow.. produce something a bit harder than WOTLK and a bit less tedious than Cata. They may have been able to satisfy everyone. Does that sound crazy? silly


I think they DID shoot for that. My impression of their mindset was that the regulars were for regular players and the heroics for the top players, until they inevitably nerf them (as we all knew they would).

Unfortunately they don't seem to have realized that 90% of the players think they ARE the top players.

It's not a simple problem with a linear solution anyways. There's multiple problems with the system (not the least of which is the fact they went and made pretty much every class simply less fun) that are distorting the situation, magnifying the problems, or both.




I think that making Heroic 5-mans difficult for the "casuals" is a terrible idea and if that was what they were going for then that just sucks. My reasoning is that this means they basically put in a large roadblock for the "casuals" to make sure they never see even normal mode raids or when they do it will all be so far out of date it isn't worth doing.

And why do 5-mans need to be hard? I thought it was raids that were the pinnacle of difficulty for hardcore raiders? Am I wrong on that?

Your last statement is spot on. The classes/roles are not fun to play anymore for the most part. They feel dull and lackluster compared to the pacing of WOTLK and just like the NGE in Star Wars Galaxies, they will never even consider reverting back to pre-Cata mechanics.

 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazimortal posted:
What a bunch of blah blah blah all to prove you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Still thinking that magical elf is it's very own real person eh? Sorry to tell you that that character is still you! A challenge to the character is a challenge to the player no matter how pretty you wanna dress up the words.

Basically what you are saying here is that you can't tell the difference between yourself and a magical elf running along your computer screen, how very sad for you.

Edit: Btw, I know you think it's hard to move out of fire but I promise you all that is required is to press a button for 2 or 3 seconds.


Projection? From you? LOL! You're the subliterate dumbass who can't tell the difference between the player and the character, not me. I'm the one trying, more patiently than a mongoloid chimp like you deserves, to explain that they aren't, in fact, the same thing.

And no, a challenge to the character is not the same as a challenge to the player, but because it requires the literacy skills of a third grader or better to understand it, it, like simple math and coherent thought, is a bit beyond your abilities.

Now why don't you waddle your 500lb arse back over to farming the latest and greatest token before your drool shorts out your keyboard, cretin.

grin

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
The more you talk about your character being it's own entity, the more I am convinced you shouldn't have stopped taking your meds. Does your doctor know you broke out of your room to spread your crazy over the internet?

What you see on the screen isn't real life so you should stop pretending to be a magical elf because it only shows how crazy you are.

 

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Fist_de_Yuma 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Other than two problems I really don't have any heart burn with the new system. In the old game I would run heroics but not raids. I saw raids as something for the hard core and those with more time than me. I use to do raids but they take up far too much time and in truth were not fun.

I did get a little frustrated with players who were only interested in running a heroic as fast as possible. There was no attempt to plan anything. It was pure hack and slash. I had fun but I also the mental side of things. The new runs are fun and many times I have groups that want to use CC and tactics. It is slightly disappointing that some groups want to hack and slash through but even those are fun.

The two problems I have are related to attempts to force people into heroics. By making two badge systems they are saying, run heroics or just look at the great gear; something you'll never touch. Make the gear cost twice as much but give players not willing to do two hour instances runs a shot.

The second problem is the worse of all. That is orbs. I'm very into crafting. I have 17 players and most have maxed trades. I work hard to get the material; hunting, farming and buying. Some of my players have reached a point where the only way I can advance crafting is to do something I have no desire to do.

We had the same problem with the frozen orbs and they fixed it. You would think they had learned from that mistake. I really expect then to fix this problem. I just wonder how they came to repeat it. They made the same mistake with badges before. Why are the repeating mistakes? Makes you wonder.

 

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Unstruck 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazimortal posted:
The more you talk about your character being it's own entity, the more I am convinced you shouldn't have stopped taking your meds. Does your doctor know you broke out of your room to spread your crazy over the internet?

What you see on the screen isn't real life so you should stop pretending to be a magical elf because it only shows how crazy you are.


A character is no more equal to being the player than a corporation is equal to being the business signers. You may shape the entity's destiny, help it grow, and make decisions to influence its progression, but it is NOT you.

The puppeteer isn't his puppets. If you reread his post from that perspective, it makes a lot of sense.

 

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NukeMage 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
This thread had just turned brutal . . .

It has become something like watching a mentally handicapped person lose game after game of chess to a seasoned pro, but the mentally impaired individual thinks that he is winning at checkers . . .

 

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-Mythril- 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
quazi take this for what it's worth from a neutral observer. You're getting your ass kicked. shhhhhhh, is my advice.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Unstruck posted:
Quazimortal posted:
The more you talk about your character being it's own entity, the more I am convinced you shouldn't have stopped taking your meds. Does your doctor know you broke out of your room to spread your crazy over the internet?

What you see on the screen isn't real life so you should stop pretending to be a magical elf because it only shows how crazy you are.


A character is no more equal to being the player than a corporation is equal to being the business signers. You may shape the entity's destiny, help it grow, and make decisions to influence its progression, but it is NOT you.

The puppeteer isn't his puppets. If you reread his post from that perspective, it makes a lot of sense.


Apples and oranges.

 

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Diskent 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
The main flaw with the OP's theory is that PC gaming is pretty much dead now. It is all platform now.

 

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Cawlin 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
I haven't really read much of the thread aside from the OP and I will say:

Good post Gutter - and I am glad to see you presenting the truth of the matter that puts subscription records into better perspective in an expanding market.

That said, I will only offer discussion of the concept:

It's a fine line to walk when you try to make a game that provides enough excitement and challenge to the "elite" to keep them interested and to keep the buzz going through the gaming circles, while at the same time providing enough draw and something to strive for to the masses that is challenging, might not be achieved, but doesn't make the average player feel like they're wasting their time going for. I know that sounds like a lot of conflicting stuff but read it again if it didn't make sense.

I think that the perception of Cataclysm is likely as much a result of the effect of the pathetically easy WOTLK expansion as it is a result of poor execution and lack of unified vision on the part of Blizzard. Put simply, players are still shell shocked that it's not like WOTLK, and Blizzard's main talent has moved on. What's left is some attempt to recapture the elite gaming concept of the early days of WoW being executed by a group of ham-fisted troglodytes, being marketed to a bunch of cretins who want everything to be like it was in WOTLK.

This game is a cash cow - Blizzard knows that if it pretty much stopped all but basic maintenance on the game it will still be hugely profitable for at least 2 more years. It's a shame for those who love it, but that's my guess as to what's going on. The current dev team is being given too much latitude for their limited talent and they've basically turned it into their own little sandbox of ineptitude. Players continue to pay to play, lacking any compelling alternative (possible exception being Rift), and you have a product that is starting the downward decline. Admittedly, the game is getting a little long in the tooth - it will be hard to keep it fresh without dramatic shakeups which ultimately please some and displease others. I think fiscally, Blizzard is really not concerned with that though as I feel they're ready to put this one out to pasture and let the stud fees carry their development efforts of bigger and better projects.

 

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siujoey 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
-Mythril- posted:
quazi take this for what it's worth from a neutral observer. You're getting your ass kicked. shhhhhhh, is my advice.

 

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amar.keny 
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Great post! And totally agree.

 

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takhteh 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
OMG. Someone woke Broken. This will not end well.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
takhteh posted:
OMG. Someone woke Broken. This will not end well.


He gets pretty riled up too, huh? laugh

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazimortal posted:
takhteh posted:
OMG. Someone woke Broken. This will not end well.


He gets pretty riled up too, huh? laugh
So you're either proud of your trolling or proud of your inability to grasp a basic concept. Which is it? grin

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
Quazimortal posted:
takhteh posted:
OMG. Someone woke Broken. This will not end well.


He gets pretty riled up too, huh? laugh
So you're either proud of your trolling or proud of your inability to grasp a basic concept. Which is it? grin


whistling

 

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Kriegprojekt 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Broken_Kayfabe posted:
Quazimortal posted:
I understand perfectly.


No you don't. You don't understand the barest fraction of what I said. You're as far from understanding it as my dachshund is from understanding calculus.



Haha! You have a weiner dog.

 

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Billarious 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Great original post.

 

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siujoey 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
LMAO, I love how people just say they were trolling after they realize what an idiot they are. Sure.... you were trolling. I think that is crystal clear to everyone here.








BWAHAHAHAHAHA

 

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TruthyID 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
There are a couple of things missing from the OP that actually make the situation worse than Gutter has described.

1. The distribution of player skill is closer to a Boltzman distribution than it is to a normalized distribution (bell curve) meaning that there are more players near or below the mean than the OP claimed.

2. This expansion is, in large part, about recruiting new players. The new friendlier leveling model is all about attracting and retaining players new to WoW and MMOs in general. This was a reaction to their claim that most people never got past level 10. When these new players get to end game they find the dungeons and heroics to be punishing places where they are subjected to all forms of abuse from others players. These people are going to leave and never come back. The way this expansion was designed almost feels like a bait and switch once you reach endgame.

3. The game has become a lot more time consuming. Regardless of skill level most of us have other things that demand our time. In WotLK you could get into and finish a heroic in the same time it takes just to get through the queue now. Requiring 2-3 times as long to accomplish the same thing is bad business. Nobody would buy a new appliance that took 3 times as long to do the same thing as the previous model. Nobody would use a new service that took 3 times as long either. It's just a ridiculous in this setting. On top of the increased time requirements, their loyal fan base is getting older. The players that started with WoW 6 years ago are older now and have more responsibilities now.

I get the feeling that the endgame is the way it is because the egos that are working on it couldn't handle being teased about making "easy" content, even if it meant being the most successful MMO to date.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
siujoey posted:
LMAO, I love how people just say they were trolling after they realize what an idiot they are. Sure.... you were trolling. I think that is crystal clear to everyone here.








BWAHAHAHAHAHA


^ Owned. laugh

 

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TruthyID 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazimortal posted:
siujoey posted:
LMAO, I love how people just say they were trolling after they realize what an idiot they are. Sure.... you were trolling. I think that is crystal clear to everyone here.








BWAHAHAHAHAHA


^ Owned. laugh


I'll say, especially since he was talking about you.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
TruthyID posted:
I'll say, especially since he was talking about you.


What was that sir? You are having trouble understanding basic concepts? That's ok, we knew about your problems already.

Quazimortal posted:
TruthyID posted:
Cause adjusting base values and multipliers sounds way harder than completely redesigning the way every talent in the game works in pvp right? doh!





Oh my bad, I forgot that there would be people who don't have simple reasoning skills reading here. Let me explain it to you so that you might understand since you are having trouble thinking for yourself. The time and effort that it would take to design a system in which you can change an ability's function depending on if you are flagged or not would no where near equal the amount of time they spend constantly balancing the abilities between PvP and PvE.

Now if that was a little too complicated for you let me know and I'll attempt to dumb it down a little more for ya.

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazimortal posted:
siujoey posted:
LMAO, I love how people just say they were trolling after they realize what an idiot they are. Sure.... you were trolling. I think that is crystal clear to everyone here.








BWAHAHAHAHAHA


^ Owned. laugh
If I had been drinking coca cola, my keyboard would need a bath and my nose would be burning. Hysterical.

 

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siujoey 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Oh please don't stop now Quazi. I just got to work, and it looks to be a pretty boring day.

 

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seanh_race 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazimortal posted:
The more you talk about your character being it's own entity, the more I am convinced you shouldn't have stopped taking your meds. Does your doctor know you broke out of your room to spread your crazy over the internet?

What you see on the screen isn't real life so you should stop pretending to be a magical elf because it only shows how crazy you are.


so you're not a role player. it's ok.

that doesn't mean other people are NOT role players. many people ARE role players. and that's ok too.

the thing that's not ok is that you have no concept that some people like to role play. not only in computer games, but in table top games (like d&d), and even in real life (larping).



P.S. i suppose it's also not ok that people pretend that since this game is labelled "rpg" that everyone playing likes to role play. they obviously don't. in fact there's more people playing this game like a strategy game than a role playing game.

i personally role play. i make decisions in the game based on a fictional persona i created. if i get a quest that tells me to kill bears in the woods for some uber loot, i don't do that quest. becuase my fictional persona wouldn't do that.

obviously many/most people choose to complete quests based on the loot, not the story. becuase they're playing the game like a strategy game, not a role playing one. pretending this isn't the case is just silly...

 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Actually I wasn't referring to explicit roleplaying at all. While nothing you said was wrong, it wasn't really in line with what I originally said either. Since you brought up table D&D, a more in-line comparison would be - the D&D fighter hitting the orc with his longsword for d8 damage = character action/challenge, deciding to attack the orc in the first place = player action/challenge. Not a difficult concept in the least... for people who aren't saddled with sub-simian levels of comprehension, that is.

Now let us get back to watching the Quazi meltdown.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Broken_Kayfabe posted:
Now let us get back to watching Quazi troll the shit out of me and the rest of the VN noobs out here.


FTFY. grin

 

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NukeMage 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazi, you are either an idiot and/or a douchebag. Please go back to pooping in the sandbox and eating your animal crackers. Leave the posting to your betters.

 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
I don't think I've ever seen a poster who fit this better.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
NukeMage posted:
Quazi, you are either an idiot and/or a douchebag. Please go back to pooping in the sandbox and eating your animal crackers. Leave the posting to your betters.


Oh were those your animal crackers? My bad.

 

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NukeMage 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazimortal posted:
NukeMage posted:
Quazi, you are either an idiot and/or a douchebag. Please go back to pooping in the sandbox and eating your animal crackers. Leave the posting to your betters.


Oh were those your animal crackers? My bad.


Yep, you stole them from my three year old. Your douche baggery just grows.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Hey man, if the food is just laying around it's up for grabs!

 

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siujoey 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Yeah, and Charlie Sheen is trolling everyone too, I heard....

 

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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Charlie Sheen is a brilliant and talented man and should be the role model of all children.

 

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-Mythril- 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Broken_Kayfabe posted:
I don't think I've ever seen a poster who fit this better.


My keyboard... Does tea clean up well? grin

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
You guys crack me up. laugh

At least Charlie Sheen is still a rock star!

Edit: Btw, all you people who still refuse to believe you got owned? Yeah, you got owned. happy

 

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NukeMage 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
-Mythril- posted:





I'd hit it.

 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
NukeMage posted:
I'd hit it.


I don't even see the problem. So her teeth aren't perfect... they still look white enough. And a poet! That reeks of introvert, and they tend to be wildcats in the sack.

Watching Q furiously spinning as hard as he can, expending all this energy to, in the end, convince absolutely nobody (probably not even himself) puts this in mind, though:


 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Whew! All this typing takes so much energy and time! I better go take a nap now, because of all the difficult sitting and typing I've been doing. laugh

 

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Kamaroz 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
WoW.....lol.

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazy, if your objective is to validate by example John Gabriel's Greater Internet F**kwad theory, you have been wildly successful.

Where's Mithan when you need him...

 

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Quazimortal 
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Isn't Mithan a her?

 

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Kriegprojekt 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Quazimortal posted:
Isn't Mithan a her?



Hah! Stop trolling!

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
According to everyone else I'm not a troll though. Cause if they were to admit that then they would have to admit to getting OWNED! grin

 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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I put you at... eh, about 60% or so of the way to having convinced yourself that that is actually what happened.

Just a few more posts to get there!

 

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siujoey 
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Quazimortal posted:
According to everyone else I'm not a troll though. Cause if they were to admit that then they would have to admit to getting OWNED! grin


Right. Because trolling someone on a gaming board is a huge accomplishment in the first place. Just pull up your big-boy pants, admit you were an idiot, and move on. That's what an adult would do in this situation. And stop stealing Korrigan's self-delusion pills, it's getting pathetic.

 

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Quazimortal 
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laugh

 

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Groooovechampion 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Diskent posted:
The main flaw with the OP's theory is that PC gaming is pretty much dead now. It is all platform now.


I keep hearing this "PC gaming pretty much dead" lately. Some random youtuber about bad company 2/EA also did this.

I didn´t quite get the general point of that quote. Does anybody care to explain this a bit more thoroughly:)?

 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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65%! Go! Go! Go!

Groooovechampion posted:
I keep hearing this "PC gaming pretty much dead" lately. Some random youtuber about bad company 2/EA also did this.

I didn´t quite get the general point of that quote. Does anybody care to explain this a bit more thoroughly:)?


People have been saying that since the original Nintendo. Some genres are in better shape than others, but PC gaming isn't dead.

 

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Turumbar-HG 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Probably too late to be chipping in on this discussion without being involved in the you're an idiot/no I'm a troll side conversation, but I'm going to do it anyway.

Just because Blizzard got from A to B in one fashion doesn't mean the path to point C is achieved in the same way. I find it amusing the number of people complaining about GC now and saying he's going to kill the game and wishing that Kaplan would come back. Just as many people complained about Kaplan when he was in charge and made changes that were not personally liked by the person complaining.

While I do agree that some of the decisions that were made in the development of Cata have made the game more tedious (healing changes, length of time to complete heroics, change to points from badges and capping, making it longer for people to gear up from heroics), I disagree with the point that the game no longer appeals to the average skill level gamer. If anything, the game has become easier to play and is more appealing to the average gamer (less choices to make when placing talent points, buttons light up when it's time to use certain skills, less strict rotations for DPS classes).

 

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Spookysheep 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Turumbar-HG posted:
Probably too late to be chipping in on this discussion without being involved in the you're an idiot/no I'm a troll side conversation, but I'm going to do it anyway.

Just because Blizzard got from A to B in one fashion doesn't mean the path to point C is achieved in the same way. I find it amusing the number of people complaining about GC now and saying he's going to kill the game and wishing that Kaplan would come back. Just as many people complained about Kaplan when he was in charge and made changes that were not personally liked by the person complaining.

While I do agree that some of the decisions that were made in the development of Cata have made the game more tedious (healing changes, length of time to complete heroics, change to points from badges and capping, making it longer for people to gear up from heroics), I disagree with the point that the game no longer appeals to the average skill level gamer. If anything, the game has become easier to play and is more appealing to the average gamer (less choices to make when placing talent points, buttons light up when it's time to use certain skills, less strict rotations for DPS classes).





You have not played past level 80 then.

Once you hit cata dungeons, the game in no way appeals to the average gamer. Even with all the right pretty buttons lighting up, the average WoW player is too retarded to get through a cataclysm normal without lots of deaths/wipes.

Might as well play WoW on a free private server now, because there is no reason to do anything or associate outside of your guild, ever.

 

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Turumbar-HG 
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I have an 85, completed every heroic (done a few achieves here and there) and raided a portion of the first tier (6 bosses killed).

I guess it depends on what the definition of "average gamer" really is.

My 10yr old son plays and has 2-85's. Raids on his DK and has been tanking on his paladin (not geared enough for heroics yet). I don't think that he would fit the definition though.

A couple of women I know (mother's of my daughter's friends) play that probably are closer to what an "average gamer" is, and while they are enjoying things, I don't think they have hit 85 yet.

I would venture out on a limb and say that an average WoW player is not to be found posting on this forum, and probably isn't found posting on Blizzard's forums either.

 

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Spookysheep 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Agree, the average wow player doesn't post on forums, they are too busy wiping on trash in cata normals.

 

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pattongb 
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Total crap.

Absolute nonsense.

Gutter im suprised by you.

Anyone actually saying that WoW needs to be easier is seriously disturbed. Im concerned for your mental health, seriously.

WoW became a once in a lifetime Sensation when it was Vanilla, not BC, not Wrath, not Cata. Those expansions have continued to build on WoW's subscription base, but they DID NOT put the monster into puberty; regular WoW did that.

Regular WoW that had tougher leveling, tougher quests, tougher dungeons, and opvp that inhibited leveling at times (on pvp servers). Gear was not yet the determinating factor in ALL pvp like it mostly is today.

Dumbing down this game any further would allow it to be played on my 6 year olds DS while sitting on a swing at recess.

No thanks and no wonder so many of us have left.

 

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GutterSludge 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
pat,

Did you even read what I wrote?

 

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Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
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Fist_de_Yuma 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Most of could don't use the word easy or hard. We want heroic's to be shorter. We don't want to have to grind so long to get gear. If that means you think it is easy then so be it. We want fun, hard or easy means nothing if it is not fun.

 

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There are three kind of liberals;
Stupid, ignorant or evil
The result is always evil but the intent is not always evil. Not that it makes much difference in the long run.
No one here is exactly as they seem. - G'Kar
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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
People that have problems in WoW with standing in the fire and dying would probably suck at Portal, but they'd still have fun playing Portal.

 

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WoW and DAoC - Too many alts to count
Charter Member - Altaholics Anonymous
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hostagecat 
Title: Lord of the Fluffy Death Kittys
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Subject: Blizzard: Forgetting how you got from A to B?
Spookysheep posted:
Agree, the average wow player doesn't post on forums, they are too busy wiping on trash in cata normals.


Actually with the random group buff for pugs, its very hard to wipe on Trash in CATA normals now. You have to really work not to make it thru a normal.

Heroics on the other hand is another story all together.

 

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Please do not nuzzle the instrument of my vengence-Rok'tar
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