Vault_News
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Subject:
Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Bashiok posted:
We?re making a number of hotfixes to address use of the Dungeon Finder and vote kick tools. The following hotfixes will require realm restarts to implement, which are likely to be next Tuesday?s weekly maintenance.
- Players who are outside a dungeon for more than a few minutes are now immediately able to be kicked.
- If queuing as a group with a tank or healer, and the tank or healer drops group (or is kicked) soon after joining, those that queued with them will also be removed from the dungeon.
- If three or more players group queue with each other it will require an additional vote for them to kick anyone they did not group queue with.
- If a group queue of 4 kicks the one person that they did not group queue with they will each receive a more severe penalty to their ability to initiate future kicks.
- If someone initiates a vote kick for someone they group queued with they will not incur a penalty to their ability to initiate future kicks.
With these changes we hope to reduce some undesirable behavior and annoyances, and encourage greater patience when using the Dungeon Finder. In addition, keep in mind that both initiating and agreeing to vote kick have always carried the same weight to your ability to kick in the future. It's always best to save your votes for when it really counts to ensure your ability to kick is available when it does.
We?ll of course be watching how these changes work to improve these systems, and always appreciate your feedback.
As these and other hotfixes are implemented, they'll be added to the hotfix blog - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2259389#blog
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Quazimortal
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All this will accomplish is to allow the abuse from the other side of the fence. Does anyone even think things through at Blizzard anymore?
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Rill_of_WE
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Blizzard posted:
* If queuing as a group with a tank or healer, and the tank or healer drops group (or is kicked) soon after joining, those that queued with them will also be removed from the dungeon.
Not sure what this one is trying to accomplish. Anyone have a thought?
Blizzard posted:
* If a group queue of 4 kicks the one person that they did not group queue with they will each receive a more severe penalty to their ability to initiate future kicks.
I guess I just don't like the thought of being penalized in a legitimate situation. :P But I understand how other guilds/groups have abused the system enough to cause this kind of 'fix'. Most of the time we do all guild runs but sometimes we only have 3 or 4 and fill. Rarely do we have to kick anyone in a mostly guild group. We're all pretty patient about explaining bosses and shrugging off mistakes. The only time we kick people is they keep repeating their mistakes when we've clearly explained what needs to be done.
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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Subject:
Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Rill_of_WE posted:
Blizzard posted:
* If queuing as a group with a tank or healer, and the tank or healer drops group (or is kicked) soon after joining, those that queued with them will also be removed from the dungeon.
Not sure what this one is trying to accomplish. Anyone have a thought?
Tanks and healers have instant queues, it sounds as if maybe some dps were using them to get a dungeon started, and then having the tank or healer that helped get the instant pop, drop group.
But then you're still left waiting for that role to be filled still, so...
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Quazimortal
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Subject:
Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
Rill_of_WE posted:
Blizzard posted:
* If queuing as a group with a tank or healer, and the tank or healer drops group (or is kicked) soon after joining, those that queued with them will also be removed from the dungeon.
Not sure what this one is trying to accomplish. Anyone have a thought?
Tanks and healers have instant queues, it sounds as if maybe some dps were using them to get a dungeon started, and then having the tank or healer that helped get the instant pop, drop group.
But then you're still left waiting for that role to be filled still, so...
Which is why I'm stunned they are doing this because it doesn't help anything at all. I mean come on, let's say you and 3 other guildies queued into a dungeon and all of a sudden your healer loses his internet. So just because one person had something happen completely out of their control 3 other people get screwed? Not to mention now those 3 people can't queue back into a dungeon for another 15 minutes.
This change is absolutely retarded.
Edit: Btw I could sit around for at least an hour thinking up legitimate scenarios explaining how retarded it is.
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Pacorra
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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
Tanks and healers have instant queues, it sounds as if maybe some dps were using them to get a dungeon started, and then having the tank or healer that helped get the instant pop, drop group.
But then you're still left waiting for that role to be filled still, so...
Scenario 1: a DPS queues by himself, takes 45 minutes for him to have a full group.
Scenario 2: a DPS queues together with a tank, they get an instant group, tank drops, group is put at the top of the queue and gets the next available tank. Took maybe 5 minutes.
Many tanks who are not interested in running LFD instances are "selling" their short queue times to the less fortunate DPS players. I've even seen the disgusting variant where the DPS (3 guilded guys) kicked the random tank right before the last boss and then reinvited the original tank so he could get the VP reward without having to run the instance.
Quazimortal posted:
I could sit around for at least an hour thinking up legitimate scenarios explaining how retarded it is.
I could sit for several hours describing abuses that actually HAPPENED with the current system. The hotfixes are not perfect but they should prove a huge improvement against abuse.
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Quazimortal
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Pacorra posted:
Quazimortal posted:
I could sit around for at least an hour thinking up legitimate scenarios explaining how retarded it is.
I could sit for several hours describing abuses that actually HAPPENED with the current system. The hotfixes are not perfect but they should prove a huge improvement against abuse.
So how about reading my first post then and realize that with this change the same amount or perhaps even more abuse will occur just with a different set of people. These hotfixes are about as far from perfect as you can get and will provide ZERO improvement over the current system.
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Malachi256
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I'm genuinely interested in hearing more of your scenarios, Quazi. Your first post states your opinion but does nothing to substantiate it.
The one scenario you mention about the guild group joining and then the healer/tank DCing is seems largely invalid to me, because you can be DC'd for a long time before getting auto-dropped from the group (does the game EVER auto-drop you from the group? I can't remember the last time this happened). As long as the person reconnects and gets back in game there should be no problem.
edit: I guess you're saying that the person's internet just dies altogether? I guess I just don't know anyone who has that issue come up very often at all. If it is a pattern for someone, I'd say that that situation would be very rare, and maybe the guild should just have the person with the sucky internet just be dps.
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Quazimortal
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Malachi256 posted:
I'm genuinely interested in hearing more of your scenarios, Quazi. Your first post states your opinion but does nothing to substantiate it.
The one scenario you mention about the guild group joining and then the healer/tank DCing is seems largely invalid to me, because you can be DC'd for a long time before getting auto-dropped from the group (does the game EVER auto-drop you from the group? I can't remember the last time this happened). As long as the person reconnects and gets back in game there should be no problem.
So you wait hours upon hours for that person to get back on when their internet doesn't come back up? No you kick the disconnected person and with these new changes when you kick that healer everyone else that queued into the dungeon with him gets removed as well.
I really wasn't exaggerating about being able to spend over an hour thinking up legit scenarios but I really have no interest spending that time proving it here on VN, especially when it won't prevent the change from happening.
Malachi256 posted:
edit: I guess you're saying that the person's internet just dies altogether? I guess I just don't know anyone who has that issue come up very often at all. If it is a pattern for someone, I'd say that that situation would be very rare, and maybe the guild should just have the person with the sucky internet just be dps.
I've had my internet drop for no apparent reason in the middle of a dungeon before, hell it's happened during raids as well. Just because an event is rare doesn't change the fact that with this change the other people who queued in with them get absolutely screwed for no good reason.
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Malachi256
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Quazimortal posted:
I've had my internet drop for no apparent reason in the middle of a dungeon before, hell it's happened during raids as well. Just because an event is rare doesn't change the fact that with this change the other people who queued in with them get absolutely screwed for no good reason.
I think the rampant abuse that was taking place is definitely a good reason for changing the way things work. The dead-internet situation is certainly possible and it definitely sucks, but IMHO doesn't constitute a good enough reason to not implement the change. There are lots of scenarios in game right now where if your tank's/healer's/arena partner's/rated BG leader's internet just dies you're pretty well screwed, regardless of this particular system. Internet dying isn't a good enough reason to completely re-design a system - it's a reasonable assumption that people must have consistent internet in order to take part in group activities of the game, and when someone's internet does die, 'them's the breaks.'
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Quazimortal
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Malachi256 posted:
The dead-internet situation is certainly possible and it definitely sucks, but IMHO doesn't constitute a good enough reason to not implement the change.
Quazimortal posted:
I could sit around for at least an hour thinking up legitimate scenarios explaining how retarded it is.
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IndridCole
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Rill_of_WE posted:
Blizzard posted:
* If queuing as a group with a tank or healer, and the tank or healer drops group (or is kicked) soon after joining, those that queued with them will also be removed from the dungeon.
Not sure what this one is trying to accomplish. Anyone have a thought?
Blizzard posted:
* If a group queue of 4 kicks the one person that they did not group queue with they will each receive a more severe penalty to their ability to initiate future kicks.
I guess I just don't like the thought of being penalized in a legitimate situation. :P But I understand how other guilds/groups have abused the system enough to cause this kind of 'fix'. Most of the time we do all guild runs but sometimes we only have 3 or 4 and fill. Rarely do we have to kick anyone in a mostly guild group. We're all pretty patient about explaining bosses and shrugging off mistakes. The only time we kick people is they keep repeating their mistakes when we've clearly explained what needs to be done.
This will prevent tanks from basicaly RUNING which dungeon THEY want to run. Let's say you and I group together, just the two of us, and we get Oculus. But I hate OCulus and decide to drop to get a new dungeon. That's not fair to the others who randomly came here as well who were not attached to yours and mine group of two. It makes us actually run the dungeon, at least for a little bit, because it says SOON after. Hwever the draw back is if I hate the dungeon and we just screw around or do nothign till the son time is up. Maybe close to that idea but who knows that's what it sounds like to me.
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IndridCole
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Quazimortal posted:
I've had my internet drop for no apparent reason in the middle of a dungeon before, hell it's happened during raids as well. Just because an event is rare doesn't change the fact that with this change the other people who queued in with them get absolutely screwed for no good reason.
Oh yeah that sucks my Internet (wireless) sh!t the bed in the middle of a dungeon (SFK) I felt so bad.
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_Warlucky_
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The grieving this is trying to stop.
1. Paid quick ques where the tank gets 25G to group then drop.
2. Guild morons who kick the PUG people at the last boss so they can invite their inbred guildies.
3. Idiots who port out of the dungeon and attack the training dummies to stay in combat so they can't be kicked.
The only scenario that people have really come up with which might be a negative.
1. Someone in your group disconnects so if they get kicked their group will also.
So anybody with a moderate amount of IQ can tell it is a net positive unless you are actually just one the the grievers and are trying to pretend this will create a lot of new problems.
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GutterSludge
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A fix for that would be to classify someone who as DC'd as "out of the dungeon"...
Therefore they can be kicked with no penalty.
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heiromancerdrackus
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Its trying to stop queue selling. It won't.
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Fist_de_Yuma
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I've had some strange things happening that this change seems to explain. Several groups have had the tank drop after the first encounter, despite having good DPS and healing. Using a tank for quick queue explains it.
I also had some very strange kicks. The last one I was using my Rogue. I was the top DPS but not getting many heals. About half-way in things got a bit rough. One DPS died and just before the end I died. The healer was doing a total tank heal and was able to cut the last few down. I was waiting for a res when I got kicked. I not only was not healed they would not bother to res me or explain why I was kicked.
I hope these changes fix some of the abuse, but I doubt it.
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Quazimortal
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
I hope these changes fix some of the abuse, but I doubt it.
Nope, it'll just create more. Lovely, huh?
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loztpassword
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These sorts of fixes are bandaids.
It's not Blizzard's fault, tbh.
A system where players can queue into groups, with virtually zero accountability for their actions, is inherently flawed.
Fixes like these are Blizz attempts to fudge that line a bit, but it can't fix the core issue.
It isn't perfect. Once you accept that it can't ever be, then you just make the best out of a bad situation. RDF isn't going anywhere soon, and accountability isn't making a comeback either.
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Blisteringballs
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Good changes. It should cut down on the overwhelming forms of abuse and grief associated with the LFD right now.
Too bad I already canceled.
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Sprawl-zero1eye-
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Unfortunately humans are better than machines, at least until Skynet. So for now, the only way to thwart those looking to take abuse of the system is to have humans enforce rules and regulations. Again, unfortunately, with 300+ servers across 11 some geographic regions, that isn't happening.
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Bremen_Gaheris
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They spent all this time and effort fixing something that is not broken when it is their class mechanics changes that are causing the problems. Maybe they should fix the real problem? Dungeons are brutal on PUGs and specifically healers in PUGs and now they are surprised that player behavior has sharply declined? I don't get it, is it really that hard for them to figure out?
In WOTLK, maybe 1 in 50 dungeons was a slightly negative experience. But you just dropped or kicked the offender, did something else for 15 minutes and then qued again. DPS ques less than 20 minutes (10 or less around primetime my old battlegroup) and now they are almost an hour or longer.
Think maybe they could admit they were wrong and fix their new mechanics?
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PlieBrac
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Blizzard posted:
* If queuing as a group with a tank or healer, and the tank or healer drops group (or is kicked) soon after joining, those that queued with them will also be removed from the dungeon.
Not sure what this one is trying to accomplish. Anyone have a thought?
this is to address the tanks that stand around and spam "50 gold for instant cue", then the tank drops as soon as you all enter the instance, then you spend 10-15-20 min waiting for another tank dressed in green con armor that doesnt know the fights or the instances.
has been happening a couple times a week to me recently....
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Voqar
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All of this sounds pretty stupid.
I've seen ONE case where 3 people from the same guild booted a competent player to bring in a guildie (which seemed stupid since the boss drops nothing their guildie could use).
I run with 3-4 guildies all the time and if someone sucks, we'll boot them. Getting penalized for booting people who have no business being in heroics is lame.
If they're gonna do something like this, they should ditch PvE item level on PvP gear and track player performance, because if you can't pull 5k dps in a heroic, you have no business being in heroics. Make it so you can't queue for heroics until you've done every instance on regular mode. If you haven't done the instances on regular and are too lazy and stupid to figure things out, you have no business being in heroics.
Ie, it's way too easy for complete idiots who waste a space in a group to get into heroic pugs.
It's not my job (or anybody else's) to babysit failures thru heroics.
They should add in that anybody who gets AFK flagged for x amount of time can be unquestionably kicked. I've been in pug with a "brb" player gone for the rest of an instance and no ability to boot em.
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Malachi256
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Voqar posted:
All of this sounds pretty stupid.
I've seen ONE case where 3 people from the same guild booted a competent player to bring in a guildie (which seemed stupid since the boss drops nothing their guildie could use).
I run with 3-4 guildies all the time and if someone sucks, we'll boot them. Getting penalized for booting people who have no business being in heroics is lame.
If they're gonna do something like this, they should ditch PvE item level on PvP gear and track player performance, because if you can't pull 5k dps in a heroic, you have no business being in heroics. Make it so you can't queue for heroics until you've done every instance on regular mode. If you haven't done the instances on regular and are too lazy and stupid to figure things out, you have no business being in heroics.
Ie, it's way too easy for complete idiots who waste a space in a group to get into heroic pugs.
It's not my job (or anybody else's) to babysit failures thru heroics.
They should add in that anybody who gets AFK flagged for x amount of time can be unquestionably kicked. I've been in pug with a "brb" player gone for the rest of an instance and no ability to boot em.
You can still kick the loser. If you're chain running heroics with 3 other guildies and you keep running into terrible players (hasn't been my experience, but obviously this can happen) then eventually you will just be stuck with them, and yes that sucks, but once again... 'them's the breaks.'
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The_Korrigan
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I'm of the opinion that gear with resilience should have an amount of gear level subtracted from it when it comes to evaluate the gear level for PvE. Idiots with full crap PvP gear doing less DPS than the same class was doing at 80 with non-raid gear in WotLK should not have access to heroics.
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Aswakhtor
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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"If queuing as a group with a tank or healer, and the tank or healer drops group (or is kicked) soon after joining, those that queued with them will also be removed from the dungeon."
I don't see why they have to do this, if a tank or healer drops instantly after queuing they have a 30 min timer before they can queue for another dungeon.
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Mayhem702
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Subject:
Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Aswakhtor posted:
"If queuing as a group with a tank or healer, and the tank or healer drops group (or is kicked) soon after joining, those that queued with them will also be removed from the dungeon."
I don't see why they have to do this, if a tank or healer drops instantly after queuing they have a 30 min timer before they can queue for another dungeon.
The tank never had the intention to run an instance, it's for dps paying tanks to instant queue them, then drop from the group.
This places the group in front of the line for the next tank, which is usually around a 3 min wait instead of a 30.
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_Warlucky_
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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The_Korrigan posted:
I'm of the opinion that gear with resilience should have an amount of gear level subtracted from it when it comes to evaluate the gear level for PvE. Idiots with full crap PvP gear doing less DPS than the same class was doing at 80 with non-raid gear in WotLK should not have access to heroics.
Why stop there, lets deduct all stats from the iLevel. Of course which stats that get deducted for which class/spec will be decided here on VN General.
I will start
Deduct all Stamina from everybodys iLevel but a tank spec. After all if you aren't going to get hit why have stamina.
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Arcilite_I
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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_Warlucky_ posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
I'm of the opinion that gear with resilience should have an amount of gear level subtracted from it when it comes to evaluate the gear level for PvE. Idiots with full crap PvP gear doing less DPS than the same class was doing at 80 with non-raid gear in WotLK should not have access to heroics.
Why stop there, lets deduct all stats from the iLevel. Of course which stats that get deducted for which class/spec will be decided here on VN General.
I will start
Deduct all Stamina from everybodys iLevel but a tank spec. After all if you aren't going to get hit why have stamina.
Now you're on Korrigan's level of logic, this should get interesting!
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Shenron_
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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they should make it so that everyone who queued together gets 1 vote total. even if its 4 nerd geared guys and 1 noob who sucks...why not make the 4 guys forced to disband the group instead of the 1 guy getting kicked.
also i agree with stuff like resil gear having 0 item level for dungeon queueing or creating a system where stats are taken into account rather than just item level. however it will never happen since that would require some kind of effort.
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Quazimortal
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Shenron_ posted:
even if its 4 nerd geared guys and 1 noob who sucks...why not make the 4 guys forced to disband the group instead of the 1 guy getting kicked.
Should I even bother describing how moronic this comment is?
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Shenron_
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Quazimortal posted:
Should I even bother describing how moronic this comment is?
Should I even bother describing how moronic this comment is?
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Pacorra
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Quazimortal posted:
Should I even bother describing how moronic this comment is?
Yeah yeah, we know: you could spend an hour describing it, but you won't.
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IndridCole
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Voqar posted:
All of this sounds pretty stupid.
I've seen ONE case where 3 people from the same guild booted a competent player to bring in a guildie (which seemed stupid since the boss drops nothing their guildie could use).
I run with 3-4 guildies all the time and if someone sucks, we'll boot them. Getting penalized for booting people who have no business being in heroics is lame.
If they're gonna do something like this, they should ditch PvE item level on PvP gear and track player performance, because if you can't pull 5k dps in a heroic, you have no business being in heroics. Make it so you can't queue for heroics until you've done every instance on regular mode. If you haven't done the instances on regular and are too lazy and stupid to figure things out, you have no business being in heroics.
Ie, it's way too easy for complete idiots who waste a space in a group to get into heroic pugs.
It's not my job (or anybody else's) to babysit failures thru heroics.
They should add in that anybody who gets AFK flagged for x amount of time can be unquestionably kicked. I've been in pug with a "brb" player gone for the rest of an instance and no ability to boot em.
Well, duh. How are you supposed to get geared and experienced in heroics if you don't run the regs?
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IndridCole
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Arcilite_I posted:
_Warlucky_ posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
I'm of the opinion that gear with resilience should have an amount of gear level subtracted from it when it comes to evaluate the gear level for PvE. Idiots with full crap PvP gear doing less DPS than the same class was doing at 80 with non-raid gear in WotLK should not have access to heroics.
Why stop there, lets deduct all stats from the iLevel. Of course which stats that get deducted for which class/spec will be decided here on VN General.
I will start
Deduct all Stamina from everybodys iLevel but a tank spec. After all if you aren't going to get hit why have stamina.
Now you're on Korrigan's level of logic, this should get interesting!
There's a "something leading the something" here..I just can't figure out what it is. 
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IndridCole
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Shenron_ posted:
Quazimortal posted:
Should I even bother describing how moronic this comment is?
Should I even bother describing how moronic this comment is?
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Quazimortal
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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Pacorra posted:
Quazimortal posted:
Should I even bother describing how moronic this comment is?
Yeah yeah, we know: you could spend an hour describing it, but you won't.
It wouldn't take that long. 
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huldu
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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They did this because guild groups dont give a damn about anyone but themselves. So when the tank leaves or get kicked, which happens, because people have zero control, his "friends" dont get a deserter debuff for leaving. Which is what they get now.
Its hilarious to initiate a vote and put a "reasonable" reason, because they read that but they dont read WHO is about to get kicked. Ive kicked players out of guild groups of 3 for such a long time and i just find it too fun. Of course this fix will let the players leave the group without the deserter if i manage to boot the tank.
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Billarious
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The abuse of vote kick was bad and getting worse. I am not surprised they made they changes. Like all crisis reactions they probably overshot their target.
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Bremen_Gaheris
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huldu posted:
They did this because guild groups dont give a damn about anyone but themselves. So when the tank leaves or get kicked, which happens, because people have zero control, his "friends" dont get a deserter debuff for leaving. Which is what they get now.
Its hilarious to initiate a vote and put a "reasonable" reason, because they read that but they dont read WHO is about to get kicked. Ive kicked players out of guild groups of 3 for such a long time and i just find it too fun. Of course this fix will let the players leave the group without the deserter if i manage to boot the tank.
Damn, didn't think about this but now that you mention it...it makes total sense. This is the expansion of the guild. Got a small family guild or don't like being guilded cause of drama and BS? GTFO of our game. That is Blizzard's stance.
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The_Korrigan
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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_Warlucky_ posted:
Why stop there, lets deduct all stats from the iLevel. Of course which stats that get deducted for which class/spec will be decided here on VN General.
I will start
Deduct all Stamina from everybodys iLevel but a tank spec. After all if you aren't going to get hit why have stamina.
Let's compare apple and oranges (aka stamina, a stat useful for everything, and resilience, a totally useless stat for PvE), and fail at trying to make it a counter argument.
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Pacorra
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IndridCole posted:
How are you supposed to get geared and experienced in heroics if you don't run the regs?
How many regs are there at 85, and how many heroics? Do you think running normal Deadmines or SFK remotely prepares you for a successful hc run?
The heroics issue will only be solved if they a) nerf hcs into the ground, b) sell better items for cheaper, or c) add more level 85 regs. I sure hope for option (c), but by now it's clear that they will go for b) with a healthy dose of a).
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_Warlucky_
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Dungeon Finder/Vote Kick Hotfixes
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The_Korrigan posted:
_Warlucky_ posted:
Why stop there, lets deduct all stats from the iLevel. Of course which stats that get deducted for which class/spec will be decided here on VN General.
I will start
Deduct all Stamina from everybodys iLevel but a tank spec. After all if you aren't going to get hit why have stamina.
Let's compare apple and oranges (aka stamina, a stat useful for everything, and resilience, a totally useless stat for PvE), and fail at trying to make it a counter argument.
You don't like that one?
Ok how about having it compare whether you over the hit cap and deduct the excess percentage from you average ILevel.
Of course we could just tell these guys to goto a guild that likes the way they spec, that seems to be a solution for everything else.
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