Vault_News
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Subject:
Luck of the Draw Buff
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Ghostcrawler posted:
In case you aren't already aware, Luck of the Draw is the name of the buff you get for grouping with random people using Dungeon Finder. It currently provides a 5% buff to damage, healing, and health if you have at least one random player in your group. With patch 4.0.6, we are increasing this buff to 5% damage, healing, and health per random player, up to a maximum of 15%.
In the process of working on this change we actually discovered that the Luck of the Draw buff has not been working in Cataclysm at all, save for a few specific dungeons. This means that the difficulty in almost all normal and Heroic dungeons for those using the Dungeon Finder tool was higher than expected. Still, with that issue corrected in 4.0.6, we feel the bump up to 15% for three or more random players found through the Dungeon Finder is a necessary change.
The intent of Luck of the Draw is to help make up for the lack of coordination, communication, and familiarity that pick up groups suffer relative to organized groups of guild members and friends. Cataclysm dungeons, especially on Heroic mode, are quite challenging and ask for more group organization than the Wrath of the Lich King dungeons did. Therefore, Luck of the Draw became relatively weaker in Cataclysm. I'm painting the picture with unfairly large brush strokes here, but in general, Heroic dungeons are of appropriate difficulty for organized groups, but just brutal on Dungeon Finder groups. Players wonder, and rightly so, why Dungeon Finder supports Cataclysm Heroic dungeons at all when the chance of success is so low.
We think buffing Luck of the Draw is a good way to go about correcting the difficulty differences because it makes things slightly easier on PUGs without depriving the organized groups of a fun challenge. We also think the bonus is modest enough that it won't encourage organized groups to split up and just PUG instead - - the success rate for PUGs relative to organized groups is just that far behind. We still think you'll have more fun and a greater chance of success running dungeons with friends, but when that isn?t possible, we hope this change will make Dungeon Finder a more pleasant experience. Also remember that patch 4.0.6 is adjusting the difficulty of some bosses that are particularly unforgiving, such as Ozruk in Heroic Stonecore, though to be fair, we are buffing some underperforming encounters as well. In addition, we are offering larger Justice Point rewards for players who just prefer the faster pace and greater success rate of normal dungeons, and by the time 4.1 comes out everyone will have access to more powerful gear, making the older content even easier. But then there'll be new challenges to face!
We'd like to thank everyone who has provided us with feedback. We do listen, even if we don't immediately deploy every design change suggested by the player community. Our intent is to make the game fun for a wide variety of players, which can be quite a challenge when you have a community this large and this varied. We hope you continue to enjoy the game, and look forward to sharing more changes (and a few surprises) in the months ahead.
-Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft and was attacked by a coati as a child. (True story.)
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jojo263
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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oh cool....
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NukeMage
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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I like the change and think it is a step or two in the right direction in regards to PUGs and Heroics.
Though i am a bit peeved that they are just now finding out that the buff hasn't been working as intended . . .
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Cawlin
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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What, no righteous indignation about PuGs not needing such a buff?
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The_Korrigan
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Subject:
Luck of the Draw Buff
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Cawlin posted:
What, no righteous indignation about PuGs not needing such a buff?
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Unstruck
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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This was my one problems with heroics, PUGing was horrible for it. It's a great step in the right direction, but it's a bit too late. Already really jaded with Actiblizzard and pretty much done with their products as of this moment.
Rift seems decent. Taking my time with it in hopes that when I do finally hit max level there will be plenty to do. Always a fear with a new release and all.
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Conceited
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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At the rate they are going the Cata Heroics are going to be /faceroll soon.
With the nerfs already coming(plus more in the future, I'm sure), and this increase, it seems a bit much.
The only problem I have with how they are now is you need a group of non-idiots. Which I suppose is pretty rare in the RFD. The players need to learn to play. Blizzard needs to stop making the game so bloody easy.
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_Warlucky_
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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Nice solution, one of the A team must of been slumming.
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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Wow, from getting no buff at all even though we thought we were up to 15%... I'm kind of surprised that they'll let us get that high of a bonus to dmg/healing/health without first trying out the original 5% we were supposed to be getting, but I'm not going to cry that my dungeons finish faster either.
I bet they nerf it down to max 7-10% in just a couple weeks. Exploit early, exploit often!
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Arcilite_I
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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Heh, this is awfully convenient timing.
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Kriegprojekt
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Subject:
Luck of the Draw Buff
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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
Wow, from getting no buff at all even though we thought we were up to 15%... I'm kind of surprised that they'll let us get that high of a bonus to dmg/healing/health without first trying out the original 5% we were supposed to be getting, but I'm not going to cry that my dungeons finish faster either.
Yeah. I dont understand this. If it wasnt working as intended, why would you make it work and then bump it up another 10% in the process? Sounds like they are just finding any excuse to reduce the difficulty of Heroics. Probably due to the feedback they have been getting about them since Cata went live. God forbid you turn around and just admit you were wrong and screwed the pooch when you (ahem, Ghostcrawler) decided to increase the difficulty in Cata Heroics.
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st0rmie
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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I'm trying to think of anything in a heroic where you will currently fail if you do it wrong, but where a 15% buff would let you succeed. Will a 15% buff help against the Stonecore endboss that throws boulders that hit for 700k damage?
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Spookysheep
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Subject:
Luck of the Draw Buff
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Arcilite_I posted:
Heh, this is awfully convenient timing.
Isn't it though. 
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slythetove
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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Predictable change, and good for PuGs.
I have to wonder how it will make standing in place casting a slow boring heal any more fun though...
Baby steps I guess.
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Zero_Washu
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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Too late for the most part. Based on my guild and the few others I have in game friends with this is too late. Far too many people are gone so I will be curious what their numbers will be come late Feb and March. I mean, my guild which could see 40+ during prime time back in November and such can't even crack 20 now. Similar situations exist with the others I know of.
Fortunately this fix provides both camps with something. The water cooler hard cores (and real ones) can still put their groups together and do heroics without the buff thus preserving their "difficulty" while those who cannot always put together groups get something to make it a bit easier.
Amazing how much of the game and player base they were willing to sacrifice just to make Arena Tournaments less of a joke
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Arunne
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Too little too late for my guild. Most have canceled till things change enough.
Heck even my wife canceled and she is the hardcore of the hardcore and shes too frustrated to play right now.
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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Subject:
Luck of the Draw Buff
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slythetove posted:
Predictable change, and good for PuGs.
I have to wonder how it will make standing in place casting a slow boring heal any more fun though...
Baby steps I guess.
--Sly
Obviously GC thinks you just need to give it some more time and you will see the hallelujah! that WoW healing has really become.
And maybe this 15% bonus to your spells will help! Please!
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Bremen_Gaheris
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Subject:
Luck of the Draw Buff
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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
slythetove posted:
Predictable change, and good for PuGs.
I have to wonder how it will make standing in place casting a slow boring heal any more fun though...
Baby steps I guess.
--Sly
Obviously GC thinks you just need to give it some more time and you will see the hallelujah! that WoW healing has really become.
And maybe this 15% bonus to your spells will help! Please!
I am confused...I thought they said that heroics were fine and people needed to just learn to play in PUG LFD groups. Am I wrong on this?
And Rift is shaping up to look pretty danged cool. I think I will give it a spin since I am MMO-less right now and have 2 weeks at home coming up.
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The_Korrigan
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Subject:
Luck of the Draw Buff
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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
Obviously GC thinks you just need to give it some more time and you will see the hallelujah! that WoW healing has really become.
And maybe this 15% bonus to your spells will help! Please!
In the meantime, the raid content and heroic raid content of this tier has already been cleared, with THIS healing. But the complainers must be right, there's something wrong with healing. Possibly that it requires more skill and thinking now than the button mashing fest it was in WotLK?
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Bremen_Gaheris
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Subject:
Luck of the Draw Buff
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The_Korrigan posted:
Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
Obviously GC thinks you just need to give it some more time and you will see the hallelujah! that WoW healing has really become.
And maybe this 15% bonus to your spells will help! Please!
In the meantime, the raid content and heroic raid content of this tier has already been cleared, with THIS healing. But the complainers must be right, there's something wrong with healing. Possibly that it requires more skill and thinking now than the button mashing fest it was in WotLK?
Totally right Korrigan except the skill is not needed for healing but for every other role. It is more thought provoking and requiring of skill for the other members of the team by a long shot. As long as you are playing with people that A. care, B. not suck, and C. are accountable for wasting everyone's time, you will sail through with even a mediocre healer.
Healing doesn't require anymore skill to play. Believe me, you are only spamming one button for the most part with a stupid gimick (Chakra, Combo point Word of Glory(?) pally heal, etc) thrown in. Healing is weak and irritating now. You should try it in a PUG sometime.
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Elaok
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This is nice an all for 5 mans but i wish they would look at 10 man hard modes
its like it was all designed for 25 man then they went "oh crap 10 man hard modes uhhh screw it just wing it"
guild is probably going to have to bring 3 tanks to Halfus Hardmode my sub runs out today and its not going back up
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TruthyID
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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The_Korrigan posted:
Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
Obviously GC thinks you just need to give it some more time and you will see the hallelujah! that WoW healing has really become.
And maybe this 15% bonus to your spells will help! Please!
In the meantime, the raid content and heroic raid content of this tier has already been cleared, with THIS healing. But the complainers must be right, there's something wrong with healing. Possibly that it requires more skill and thinking now than the button mashing fest it was in WotLK?
Nobody is suggesting that the encounters are impossible with the new healing model. What people are saying is that the new healing model isn't fun. There's a difference.
Also, if you're into hard mode encounters, ask your healers how different Cata healing really is. The encounters are about massive aoe damage that needs to be burst healed. Triage only exists in 5 mans and some normal mode encounters. Outside of that it's the same old WotLK spam fest but healers are weaker than they've ever been.
Don't take my word for it though, here's a whole thread on it
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2016082331#1
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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TruthyID posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
Obviously GC thinks you just need to give it some more time and you will see the hallelujah! that WoW healing has really become.
And maybe this 15% bonus to your spells will help! Please!
In the meantime, the raid content and heroic raid content of this tier has already been cleared, with THIS healing. But the complainers must be right, there's something wrong with healing. Possibly that it requires more skill and thinking now than the button mashing fest it was in WotLK?
Nobody is suggesting that the encounters are impossible with the new healing model. What people are saying is that the new healing model isn't fun {for most people}. There's a difference.
Don't take my word for it though, here's a whole thread on it
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2016082331#1
This, and I preemptively edited a bit before Korrigan chimes in with, "well my raid healers absolutely LOVE it like this." Because it simply isn't true for the majority of healers excepting maybe Shaman from my experience with most players. Which incidentally isn't the same core group repeatedly.
Lastly, Korrigan, obviously something's off if they're giving people a 15% buff. I'm betting you they're not liking the dive in queue times, and people are raising hell about it. But continue to believe we do not have a point if you want. I bet you they'll continue to hedge on this issue though - because there really is a problem. Whether you see it or not doesn't really matter. We're not going to stop complaining if we're not enjoying ourselves because Korrigan says we're wrong.
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Spookysheep
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It truly astounds me that anyone bothers to answer idiotic statements with anything but ridicule.
Why do you guys waste your time so? 
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Kriegprojekt
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Luck of the Draw Buff
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Spookysheep posted:
It truly astounds me that anyone bothers to answer idiotic statements with anything but ridicule.
Why do you guys waste your time so?
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Broken_Kayfabe
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A nerf to the difficulty of heroics?
I was only off by a few days.
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Ayadread
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To be fair, the reason why so many healers "quit" is because the ilevel allowing players into a heroic was set too low. 5 random people all wearing ilevel 329-335 gear can make an easy dungeon into a nightmare. That same dungeon, with people wearing the same gear, can be quite easy when it's guildies in vent who know the encounters. The reason so many are finding cata heroics so hard is because bads were used to being carried thru wotlk hearoics by overgeared players.
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Kriegprojekt
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Ayadread posted:
To be fair, the reason why so many healers "quit" is because the ilevel allowing players into a heroic was set too low. 5 random people all wearing ilevel 329-335 gear can make an easy dungeon into a nightmare. That same dungeon, with people wearing the same gear, can be quite easy when it's guildies in vent who know the encounters. The reason so many are finding cata heroics so hard is because bads were used to being carried thru wotlk hearoics by overgeared players.
You dont even need to wear the gear. Just buy some RvR 339 gear and keep it in your inventory and youll meet the heroic reqs.
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The_Korrigan
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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
Lastly, Korrigan, obviously something's off if they're giving people a 15% buff.
Oh yes there is a reason - and that reason is that the PUG scrubs, incapable of anything looking like teamwork and "not standing in fire", still complain about the difficulty of heroics. Note that I don't mind the 15% buff, I'm always running with a guild group so we can keep on enjoying the content as it was intended on our alts.
I largely prefer that solution to a global nerf of all bosses, making them as dumb as those in WotLK. At least this change doesn't affect everybody, and if it makes some people happy... *shrug* I couldn't care less, as long as it doesn't affect my enjoyment, which is enjoying those bosses when they still present some challenge.
Ayadread posted:
The reason so many are finding cata heroics so hard is because bads were used to being carried thru wotlk hearoics by overgeared players
THIS.
And to make those scrubs happy, Blizzard gives them "artificial overgearing" in the form of a +15% buff.
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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Spooky's actually right, there's no sense in responding to someone whose only argument consists of equal parts petty snide remarks and haughty snobbish superiority over a video game with anything other than complete ridicule.
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Ugh_Lancelot
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The_Korrigan posted:
And to make those scrubs happy, Blizzard gives them "artificial overgearing" in the form of a +15% buff.
Obviously, you're voicing the minority opinion. The majority of WoW players laugh at people like you and call you other names that are no less derogatory, yet probably much more solidly grounded in reality. Enjoy your circle-jerk. It's patently obvious which set of whiners has been more productive. 
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st0rmie
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Ugh_Lancelot posted:
Obviously, you're voicing the minority opinion. The majority of WoW players laugh at people like you and call you other names that are no less derogatory, yet probably much more solidly grounded in reality. Enjoy your circle-jerk. It's patently obvious which set of whiners has been more productive.
Hey, at least this time around people like Korrigan and myself and other serious players have convinced Blizzard that they don't need to actually ruin the game in the process of catering to over-entitled and under-talented players, but rather that they need to look for solutions which extend the sliding scale of difficulty (rather than condensing it all up at the "easy" end of the scale).
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siujoey
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st0rmie posted:
catering to over-entitled and under-talented players, but rather that they need to look for solutions which extend the sliding scale of difficulty (rather than condensing it all up at the "easy" end of the scale).
Bwahahahaha. Now I (somewhat) understand the stupidity. There are people that are under the impression that WoW is a "talent". Oh that's good stuff. Thank you.
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Diskent
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Zero_Washu posted:
Too late for the most part. Based on my guild and the few others I have in game friends with this is too late. Far too many people are gone so I will be curious what their numbers will be come late Feb and March. I mean, my guild which could see 40+ during prime time back in November and such can't even crack 20 now. Similar situations exist with the others I know of.
What does this have to do with you guild not being able to field a group? This is for PUGs isn't it?
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NukeMage
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siujoey posted:
st0rmie posted:
catering to over-entitled and under-talented players, but rather that they need to look for solutions which extend the sliding scale of difficulty (rather than condensing it all up at the "easy" end of the scale).
Bwahahahaha. Now I (somewhat) understand the stupidity. There are people that are under the impression that WoW is a "talent". Oh that's good stuff. Thank you.
WoW doesn't take talent, yet still so many people just suck at the game 
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The_Korrigan
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NukeMage posted:
WoW doesn't take talent, yet still so many people just suck at the game
Someone understood the point.
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Ugh_Lancelot
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NukeMage posted:
WoW doesn't take talent, yet still so many people just suck at the game
WoW takes talent the same way Super Mario Bros takes talent. My mother still sucks at Mario. She has multiple 85s in WoW. /shrug
st0rmie posted:
they need to look for solutions which extend the sliding scale of difficulty (rather than condensing it all up at the "easy" end of the scale).
There is already a sliding scale of difficulty called "gear." Would you say that Icecrown 5-man heroics (PoS/FoS/HoR) were completely retarded easy and, if so, would you say that having folks in gear 40+ iLevels higher than the content affected the apparent difficulty? 
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st0rmie
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siujoey posted:
Bwahahahaha. Now I (somewhat) understand the stupidity. There are people that are under the impression that WoW is a "talent". Oh that's good stuff. Thank you.
What's your explanation for persistent failures if not lack of talent? Is it a physical disability?
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
WoW takes talent the same way Super Mario Bros takes talent. My mother still sucks at Mario. She has multiple 85s in WoW. /shrug
Does she find Cataclysm heroics easy? How about Cataclysm raids? Hard-mode raids?
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
There is already a sliding scale of difficulty called "gear." Would you say that Icecrown 5-man heroics (PoS/FoS/HoR) were completely retarded easy and, if so, would you say that having folks in gear 40+ iLevels higher than the content affected the apparent difficulty?
I'm a little confused by this non sequitur. Point is, a lot of people found Cataclysm content too hard and wanted it made easier. In this buff, Blizzard took an approach that made it easier for the people who needed it (PUGs, most of which contain several bad players) without affecting the difficulty for people who didn't need it (organized groups of good players). Are you saying that they should have instead done nothing and waited until gear inflation made the problem go away? I wouldn't have minded that approach, but I know a vocal crowd would have.
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Broken_Kayfabe
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All mmorpgs give an opportunity to demonstrate better play. Only an idiot would think otherwise.
The difference with WoW is it rewards you either way. Special little snowflakes shouldn't have their egos bruised by there being "winners" and "losers". Everyone's a winner!
(even the guy who fell down at the starting line, started crying, and was taken off field for his mother to wipe his nose. Don't worry, siujoey, you're still a winner to us!)
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siujoey
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st0rmie posted:
siujoey posted:
Bwahahahaha. Now I (somewhat) understand the stupidity. There are people that are under the impression that WoW is a "talent". Oh that's good stuff. Thank you.
What's your explanation for persistent failures if not lack of talent? Is it a physical disability?
It's a lack of effort, plain and simple. Anyone can be "good" at WoW.
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The_Korrigan
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siujoey posted:
It's a lack of effort, plain and simple. Anyone can be "good" at WoW.
Apparently not. 6+ years after release, there are some players who are still lost as soon as an heroic encounters involves more than a tank and spank fight.
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siujoey
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Broken_Kayfabe posted:
All mmorpgs give an opportunity to demonstrate better play. Only an idiot would think otherwise.
The difference with WoW is it rewards you either way. Special little snowflakes shouldn't have their egos bruised by there being "winners" and "losers". Everyone's a winner!
(even the guy who fell down at the starting line, started crying, and was taken off field for his mother to wipe his nose. Don't worry, siujoey, you're still a winner to us!)
Thanks for your sympathies, luckily I have my wrecking ball achievements to wipe my tears with. Just because I don't think punishing everyone is an acceptable change to dealing with afk/bots doesn't mean anything beyond that. It is a lazy solution to an annoying problem. They don't reward winners and losers EQUALLY. If you got 100 honor for entering the BG and everyone got the same, you might have a point. What you are saying is that the guy who has entered 8 BGs and carried his team every single time should get the same amount of honor as someone who never even logged on? Yeah, how have the devs never thought of this brilliant system before?! Perhaps they all have common sense, that might be the hold up. Don't worry though, even if other players have access to the same pixels you have, you'll always be my special little snowflake.
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siujoey
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The_Korrigan posted:
siujoey posted:
It's a lack of effort, plain and simple. Anyone can be "good" at WoW.
Apparently not. 6+ years after release, there are some players who are still lost as soon as an heroic encounters involves more than a tank and spank fight.
And you're explanation is that WoW is so hard that some people just don't have the talent for it? I think I will go for the more understandable: they just don't care enough to make an effort to actually learn their class and it's abilities.
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The_Korrigan
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siujoey posted:
And you're explanation is that WoW is so hard that some people just don't have the talent for it? I think I will go for the more understandable: they just don't care enough to make an effort to actually learn their class and it's abilities.
No matter if you're right or wrong, it still shows that not "everybody" can be "good" at WoW. Some suck at it and will always suck past very basic stuff, no matter the reason why, be it laziness, lack of skill, or talent, or whatever you call it.
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Malachi256
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At this point, all the decent players have already seen the content and geared up / wised up to the point where it's all easy anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
Now we can run our alts through with the LFD system and not be worried about PUG woes.
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Broken_Kayfabe
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siujoey posted:
Just because I don't think punishing everyone is an acceptable change to dealing with afk/bots doesn't mean anything beyond that. It is a lazy solution to an annoying problem.
Not being rewarded for failing a task is not "punishment", though I do understand most overly entitled people, whether it is today's special snowflake youth, seniors who think the world owes them their heart's desire, and yes, mmorpg casuals, all seem to think it is.
History demonstrates that if you aren't rewarded for failure, you tend to get BETTER. You think it's a coincidence the easiest mmorpg also has the worst players?
Will the people who either can't or won't put forth the effort to get better fall out of the system? You betcha. I don't know how they will ever manage to get over their jealousy of those who did put forth that effort - it was the over entitled casual players whining that put WoW into this situation in the first place, and somehow I doubt their ability to whine is any different than their ability to suck - above and beyond the average.
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st0rmie
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siujoey posted:
st0rmie posted:
What's your explanation for persistent failures if not lack of talent? Is it a physical disability?
It's a lack of effort, plain and simple. Anyone can be "good" at WoW.
Fair enough. You can rewrite my original reference to "catering to over-entitled and under-talented players" as "catering to over-entitled players who refuse to make an effort" and I'm equally happy with the statement.
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