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Topic: Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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heiromancerdrackus
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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This isn't a troll post, despite what you might think. The recent MMOs that have come out all feature some form of alternate advancement and some contemporary to this title do as well. Part of the reason I've grown so bored with the game right now is that I've hit a wall progressing my character. If I don't raid, I get nothing. That's fine, I have no issue with that model. If I had the time, I'd raid again. Raiding should always afford the best upgrades as the content is the most difficult and time consuming.
That being said, one of the things I genuinely miss about AoC / WAR / EQ2 were their Alternate Advancement systems. End game constructions that allowed you to further tweak / customize your character's stats and abilities by distributing points earned for accomplishing deeds at the level cap. With Cataclysm, we have even LESS customization from raid composition due to homogenization to personal customization with stat reductions. This seems to be compounded by the lack of an AA system which, originally, was slated to be put in to Cataclysm. The removal of the Path of the Titans really kicked me in the balls.
To that end, why do you think the Designers have stuck with a purely gear based progression model? Why is there no Alternate Advancement in WoW?
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_Kewk_
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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Each tier of advancement is setup in a way that allows you to be the best at that tier. Allowing you to upgrade beyond that tier over gears your character for the tier but allows you access to the next tier. If you don't raid you don't need raid gear. Leveling > dungeon > heroic dungeon > raid > heroic raid.
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JzeroVN
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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I thought the devs had posted they might add some form of AA but it has always ended up on the "someday" list. I don't think they are opposed to it - just never came up with an idea for it that fit or seemed urgent to add.
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heiromancerdrackus
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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_Kewk_ posted:
Each tier of advancement is setup in a way that allows you to be the best at that tier. Allowing you to upgrade beyond that tier over gears your character for the tier but allows you access to the next tier. If you don't raid you don't need raid gear. Leveling > dungeon > heroic dungeon > raid > heroic raid.
I think you kind of missed the point. AA isn't about gearing, although it may have an impact. For example, you farm X 'fame' or something and you are allowed to distribute that into a point of Strength. Nothing huge, but something to promote more customization and a different path of progression outside of the traditional process you pointed out. AA, from other games I've played, only has a tremendous impact at the upper tiers of distribution but they could design it to not interfere substantially with their raid tuning. That much I believe.
Fame->skill point distribution / further crafting specialization (Gear? Recipes?) / Fluff
Leveling->Dungeon->Heroic->Raid->Heroic Raid
PVP-
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Talehon69
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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DCUO you get Skill Points for new weapons/passive stat increases by doing achievements, or "Feats" as they're called. Every 100 Feat points = 1 skill point. Various feats award 10, 25, or 50 points.
I'm told SWTOR will have this same system.
edit: Problem with AA from EQ/EQ2 was you needed a certain requirement for the harder dungoens/raiding. It didn't become something to do in the offtime, but a requirement before doing raids, etc.
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TinMan52
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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heiromancerdrackus posted:
_Kewk_ posted:
Each tier of advancement is setup in a way that allows you to be the best at that tier. Allowing you to upgrade beyond that tier over gears your character for the tier but allows you access to the next tier. If you don't raid you don't need raid gear. Leveling > dungeon > heroic dungeon > raid > heroic raid.
I think you kind of missed the point. AA isn't about gearing, although it may have an impact. For example, you farm X 'fame' or something and you are allowed to distribute that into a point of Strength. Nothing huge, but something to promote more customization and a different path of progression outside of the traditional process you pointed out. AA, from other games I've played, only has a tremendous impact at the upper tiers of distribution but they could design it to not interfere substantially with their raid tuning. That much I believe.
Fame->skill point distribution / further crafting specialization (Gear? Recipes?) / Fluff
Leveling->Dungeon->Heroic->Raid->Heroic Raid
PVP-
Additional stat progression would make balancing the game even harder than it currently is. Also, ss I understand it, I would agree that raiding gear is basically an AA system.
Also, if you want some additional character advancement other than PvP or raiding, there's plenty of other paths such as achievements, pet and mount collection, crafting, etc. I feel like people bring up AA from time to time, but don't really understand what they want or are even asking for.
As for the OP, I think the game has become somewhat more generic than it used to be because it's too big to manage otherwise. The more customization that's added, the more development time that's needed. It's a core problem for most software developers.
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--Syrus--
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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Hiero what your suggesting is cool, however I can't see it being fit into WoW's current model. What your suggesting is a pretty complex highly customizable system, WoW is moving in the other direction, simpler, fixed route.
All changes to the game up to this point follow that trend, heck we even got rid of the weapon skill stats.
For what you suggest to work, the AA would have to have at least a minor impact to your actual game play. Meaning adding a few points to STR here or there wouldn't impact you game play at all, therefor players would quickly realize there is no real reward here.
On the other hand if this AA does offer significant advancement then you are going to hit balancing issues. You also run into Kewks point. You may not be asking for gearing, but any advancement to your character is going to make your character 'better', faster, stronger. For what purpose? If you have accomplished the heroic content and just don't want to raid, your character will be strong enough to beat the heroic content. Switching over to AA at that point and improving your character that way will make your character, what(?) exactly? Complete heroic content even easier?
Or are you looking to be able to become stronger PvP? I think we have those systems.
So assuming that we could implement some sort of AA, after heroics, but before raids. Aside from just giving players one more axe to grind, to what point and purpose are you advancing your character at this point?
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kyrv
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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WoW is all about gear. This is self evident, isn't it? There's no appearance tab, there's no AA's, they want you to be defined by your gear, and they want to have the power to knock you down to zero (reset) whenever they want to.
I'm not sure if WoW is king because everyone wants this, or they do this because WoW is fun to play, and many systems would be acceptable.
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--Syrus--
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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kyrv posted:
WoW is all about gear. This is self evident, isn't it? There's no appearance tab, there's no AA's, they want you to be defined by your gear, and they want to have the power to knock you down to zero (reset) whenever they want to.
I'm not sure if WoW is king because everyone wants this, or they do this because WoW is fun to play, and many systems would be acceptable.
I'd say the latter. I really enjoyed playing WoW all these years, (since release). I have enjoyed many aspects of the game, but one thing I think we can all agree on, is that when it game to end game the fun-o-meter starts to waiver. At this point however we have invested so much into our characters and our guilds that we make it work and we squeeze what ever good and fun there is in the current system and make it work.
Until WoW resets us again, gives us that 'fun' back. Where we are advancing, finding new things and by that I mean not just hunting for that 'best per slot'. Rince and Repeat.
I think a different end game system could work. Is it too late in WoW's time-line to try it? I don't know. Will they even bother to revamp a system that has worked as well as it has for six years? Is it even worth it considering the 'new project'?
There is going to be a point when Blizzard says to the WoW Dev team, "Look, the new project is coming, we've had a tremendous success in WoW, but at this point we are not thinking of new ideas, we just need to ride this out until we can launch the new one." Are we there already? *shrug*
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Darcry
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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I really have to agree with Syrus. WoW needs some sort of different end game system to stop the end game boredom train. However, I do think its too late to do it. As it is now, pvp and pve are both just gear grinds to get gear only usable in its respective grind system. Neither side wants much to do with the other. So, any end game reworking would have a very difficult line to walk. Most likely, any implementation would be watered down and just anger both sides. DAoC style, while fun for us pvp types, is all but unpalatable by the pve crowd. New raids usually require a while new expansion and usually have the same unpalatable taste to the pvp crowd. Unfortunatly, blizz is so vested in its current carrot and stick gear method that its too late to change it now without totally bringing down the house of cards.
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Auenwing
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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--Syrus-- posted:
kyrv posted:
WoW is all about gear. This is self evident, isn't it? There's no appearance tab, there's no AA's, they want you to be defined by your gear, and they want to have the power to knock you down to zero (reset) whenever they want to.
I'm not sure if WoW is king because everyone wants this, or they do this because WoW is fun to play, and many systems would be acceptable.
I'd say the latter. I really enjoyed playing WoW all these years, (since release). I have enjoyed many aspects of the game, but one thing I think we can all agree on, is that when it game to end game the fun-o-meter starts to waiver. At this point however we have invested so much into our characters and our guilds that we make it work and we squeeze what ever good and fun there is in the current system and make it work.
Until WoW resets us again, gives us that 'fun' back. Where we are advancing, finding new things and by that I mean not just hunting for that 'best per slot'. Rince and Repeat.
I think a different end game system could work. Is it too late in WoW's time-line to try it? I don't know. Will they even bother to revamp a system that has worked as well as it has for six years? Is it even worth it considering the 'new project'?
There is going to be a point when Blizzard says to the WoW Dev team, "Look, the new project is coming, we've had a tremendous success in WoW, but at this point we are not thinking of new ideas, we just need to ride this out until we can launch the new one." Are we there already? *shrug*
Like I've said before, Cata already feels like the "planned obsolescence" expansion to me (and my guild). As others have said, it just feels like more of the same. Yes, they've turned the Heroics back to more challenging. They've lowered the threshold once again on getting new players in the door, with a comment about older players attriting. In this, they are following EQs business model. They've made it easier and faster to get to end-game, eliminating a lot of "guesswork" for new players by "fast-tracking" them with directed gameplay, and covering for lore holes with cut scenes. And from a old dev perspective, it feels like they're carefully not investing in anymore hardware by keeping a balance of numbers of mobs (removing many from old instances to compensate for new ones in the 80-85 range). New zones feel smaller and are mostly crammed in to existing world spaces, "redistricting"/reusing old world zones to also compensate there as well.
This is pure speculation. It's a gut feel based on past years of experience in computer software/performance areas. So take it with as much salt as you want.
As for AAs... yes, I would love to see a game implement that. EQ2 started down that path and I left before I could see it actually come into play. I know a lot of players were disappointed with it when it first came out. Warhammer also went down this path. It can be a complicated one and/or failure if not done right.
DAoC had the RR character growth path, which was something to strive for, both for what it did for your individual character, how it benefitted your group/guild/realm, and in part for bragging rights.
I can't see WoW going back and "reinventing" what for them was their entire design paradigm. That would be trying to force something into the game, it really can't handle. And as was pointed out, gear is THE BIG KNOB they like to turn in adjusting instances, in setting new expansions. Gear is the character. Without the proper gear, you cannot PvP well. You cannot accomplish an entire run through a heroic. There is a glass wall you run into until you get the proper gear, and suddenly what was difficult becomes attainable.
That's why you'll also never see dyes in this game.
They want you to be able to instantly recognize the "holy grail". It's used as the reward, the "punishment", the "encouragement" the carrot and the stick.
Somebody once said in vanilla that you can have as much skill or more than the other player, but without the gear, you just can't compete.
Other games have the gear/skill/abilities more in balance. Because gameplay, or community rewards are the rewards. Character advancement is enhanced by gear, but not 100% dependent on it.
As far as WoW being "king" because of gear.
I don't entirely think so.
I think they are "king" in spite of a gearcentric design. It was ease of play, a sense of humor, an immersive world, refinement of copied play/concept from other games,ability to easily solo, lack of PC requirements (low entry threshold), and at one point a reputation for quality that created their success. And the fact that Pardo/Kaplan were 'fixing' the problems of outdoor raids with indoor instances.
In a sense, they've dug themselves into a hole with gear, and have to keep going with it. And it risks getting "old" for the players after a while, once they figure out the toys in the sandbox haven't really changed.
-late night ramblings
multiple edits for grammar/typos/late night stumblings
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Quazimortal
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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There is no AA in WoW because all the alcoholics spent their money on alcohol. Duh!
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heiromancerdrackus
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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TinMan52 posted:
heiromancerdrackus posted:
_Kewk_ posted:
Each tier of advancement is setup in a way that allows you to be the best at that tier. Allowing you to upgrade beyond that tier over gears your character for the tier but allows you access to the next tier. If you don't raid you don't need raid gear. Leveling > dungeon > heroic dungeon > raid > heroic raid.
I think you kind of missed the point. AA isn't about gearing, although it may have an impact. For example, you farm X 'fame' or something and you are allowed to distribute that into a point of Strength. Nothing huge, but something to promote more customization and a different path of progression outside of the traditional process you pointed out. AA, from other games I've played, only has a tremendous impact at the upper tiers of distribution but they could design it to not interfere substantially with their raid tuning. That much I believe.
Fame->skill point distribution / further crafting specialization (Gear? Recipes?) / Fluff
Leveling->Dungeon->Heroic->Raid->Heroic Raid
PVP-
Additional stat progression would make balancing the game even harder than it currently is. Also, ss I understand it, I would agree that raiding gear is basically an AA system.
Also, if you want some additional character advancement other than PvP or raiding, there's plenty of other paths such as achievements, pet and mount collection, crafting, etc. I feel like people bring up AA from time to time, but don't really understand what they want or are even asking for.
As for the OP, I think the game has become somewhat more generic than it used to be because it's too big to manage otherwise. The more customization that's added, the more development time that's needed. It's a core problem for most software developers.
Achievements are just as useless as standing next to the SW mailbox in epics to show off. Same for pet and mount collecting. Crafting is entirely finite. The point of any AA system is to give you more meaningful customization.
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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Define "meaningful"
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Unstruck
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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Auen for president. Excellent post!
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Cawlin
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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By reading the thread title I thought this was going to refer to some sort of 12 step program for WoW/MMO addiciton.
Hi, I'm Cawlin Alcarz, and... who makes the coffee around here? It's fkn terrible. Donuts aren't bad tho.
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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Whoever said "balancing nightmare" is correct.
When you hit end-game, they want 99% of your progression to be gear. Gear gear gear. Mostly they want you raiding, because WoW's long term success at end game is entirely attributable to the week-after-week nature of raiding. Keeps those subs chugging.
And then when an expansion is ready to be released, they simply reset all that progression to zero. No balancing issues to deal with, compounding each expansion... simply, reset to zero. AAs wouldn't do that.
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heiromancerdrackus
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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Malachi256 posted:
Whoever said "balancing nightmare" is correct.
When you hit end-game, they want 99% of your progression to be gear. Gear gear gear. Mostly they want you raiding, because WoW's long term success at end game is entirely attributable to the week-after-week nature of raiding. Keeps those subs chugging.
And then when an expansion is ready to be released, they simply reset all that progression to zero. No balancing issues to deal with, compounding each expansion... simply, reset to zero. AAs wouldn't do that.
You act as if they wouldn't design the system with their current PVE model in mind. They did with the Path of the Titans, they just realized their half cocked implementation was a glorified glyph, not true AA, so they rolled it into Inscription.
I define meaningful as something that makes your digital representation something better. Stronger. More quirky, perhaps. Maybe you spend 'fame' on a % of crit. Or unlock a pink mohawk for a Dwarf. The system wouldn't be able to be fully filled out, obviously. You'd have to make choices and thats the entire point. More choice. Ideally, they would afford you with the ability to fill out the cookie cutter nonsense, if they went that route, and other things for 'fluff'.
I do agree with you though. Their current design philosophy is the reason I made this thread. That and no AA, obviously.
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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The WoW community is like a herd a sheep.
Try to herd them in two directions, chaos ensues.
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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it has nothing to do with balance. blizzard has worked hard to make sure that gear is the only character advancement (as far as stats/combat) in the game so that they can "reset" it every major patch/expansion/dungeon. they want to be able to zero it out whenever they want so that a character created last week is just as strong as one created 6 years ago.
also its the only way to keep the focus on arena/raiding. many of the people that do those 2 activities hate it but do it just for the gear. it would be contrary to these ideals to introduce an AA system with fun ways to get rewards (which wouldn't expire every few months - unlike gear).
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NukeMage
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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Any alternate advancement system that made characters significantly stronger would eventually turn into a "mandatory" system, either by most guilds who do raids or harder content or by the Devs when they go to tune future content.
So either have the current gear/rep gring/material grind, or have the gear/rep/material + AA grind.
Be careful what you ask for 
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st0rmie
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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--Syrus-- posted:
I'd say the latter. I really enjoyed playing WoW all these years, (since release). I have enjoyed many aspects of the game, but one thing I think we can all agree on, is that when it game to end game the fun-o-meter starts to waiver. At this point however we have invested so much into our characters and our guilds that we make it work and we squeeze what ever good and fun there is in the current system and make it work.
Hmm, no, actually, I don't think we can all agree on that. In my experience, there seems to be a fairly even split between the "fun-o-meter starts to waiver at endgame" opinion, and the "games begins at level cap, levelling is just an unavoidable chore" opinion.
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Arcilite_I
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Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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The answer to this is a LOT simpler than the diatribes posted here. Blizz would have riots on their hands if they reset AA with each expansion, since that's how they 'acquire' balance in PvE.
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Auenwing
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Subject:
Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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Arcilite_I posted:
The answer to this is a LOT simpler than the diatribes posted here. Blizz would have riots on their hands if they reset AA with each expansion, since that's how they 'acquire' balance in PvE.
/sputters..... reset... AA....
New expansion comes out, it's a whole new world, go to closet, grab new set of gear and go out and meet new challenge. I'm in an MMO.
New expansion comes out, it's a whole new world, I've forgotten everything I ever learned/achieved. Yeah. I'm in a non-persistent world.
edits for laughing.
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Arcilite_I
Title: VN's Most Wanted
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Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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hehe, glad you didn't take my comment offensively....I've yet to see a diatribe of yours that wasn't worth reading. 
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--Syrus--
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Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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Arcilite_I posted:
hehe, glad you didn't take my comment offensively....I've yet to see a diatribe of yours that wasn't worth reading.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ARC I HOPE YOU ARE WEARING PROTECTION WHEN POSTING THIS CRAP!
jk of course
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Arcilite_I
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Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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I use NoScript and AdBlock Plus mate, good to go!
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kyrv
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Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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Great post Auen and I should add, AA's are a double edged sword. In games like DAoC, there is a point where realistically you can never catch up to people. So for PvP this is pretty big, and goes for more a hard core and long term audience. WoW is good for churn and casual players and restarting characters on the fly.
A big side effect of this, which again is both good and bad, that our characters are more expendable, yes we can have tons of achievements but as far as their power, you can remake a character today on another server and be caught up to a 5 year old character within a year easily.
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Voqar
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Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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AA in EQ is like talents at endgame. You don't really customize during leveling, you just get skills. AA at endgame allow the tweaking you get WHILE leveling in WoW. Or so it used to be.
Adding in AA at endgame would make little sense when you already get talents along the way that do the same thing.
Granted, the talent system got raped for cata and now there's little to no variety or potential for variety in any given spec. Bliz decided (or finally essentially admitted) that most of their players are too stupid to select talents on their own, and took 99% of choice or thinking out of selecting talents, almost to the point of making talents a waste of time (might as well be baseline, otherwise automatic, or ditched entirely).
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Arcilite_I
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Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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Voqar posted:
AA in EQ is like talents at endgame. You don't really customize during leveling, you just get skills. AA at endgame allow the tweaking you get WHILE leveling in WoW. Or so it used to be.
Adding in AA at endgame would make little sense when you already get talents along the way that do the same thing.
Granted, the talent system got raped for cata and now there's little to no variety or potential for variety in any given spec. Bliz decided (or finally essentially admitted) that most of their players are too stupid to select talents on their own, and took 99% of choice or thinking out of selecting talents, almost to the point of making talents a waste of time (might as well be baseline, otherwise automatic, or ditched entirely).
The specs basically turned into everything is the same except a couple tiers, where you'll switch the points to the talent to the left instead. This turns your tree from PvE to PvP.
So yea, you've still got choice in the talent trees. The problem is it's just one choice and you have to take it if you want to play both sides lol
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Elmador_MoK
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Why is there no AA in WoW? Discussion post.
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Cawlin posted:
By reading the thread title I thought this was going to refer to some sort of 12 step program for WoW/MMO addiciton.
Hi, I'm Cawlin Alcarz, and... who makes the coffee around here? It's fkn terrible. Donuts aren't bad tho.
That was my first thought when I read the title too.
And as far as alternative progression, there are achievements and stuff now.
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