Author Topic: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Vault_News 
Title: 0110011010
Be Nice to Me I'm a Bot

Posts: 43,785
Registered: Oct 18, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 42,467
User ID: 1,086,234
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Zarhym posted:
I know you're probably frustrated by any number of issues Ghostcrawler tackled in his blog. We completely get that, which was the entire point of his post. We're not telling players it's our way or the highway. We're not burying our heads in the sand and letting you figure it out. He took a lot of his own time to try and provide some insight and positive reinforcement, admit some design mistakes we've made in Cataclysm, and let you know (most importantly) that we hear you.

We also have to recognize that there is a harsh debate within the community right now about the difficulty level. Players are flinging mud at one another and saying "learn to play", or "go grind in some other hardcore MMO". People aren't in agreement about these things and need to tone down the rhetoric (which Ghostcrawler addresses eloquently in his blog).

We're not going to join that debate, though we are players too. The best we can do right now -- as I think Ghostcrawler noted well -- is keep the dialog open and encourage constructive criticism, and even positive feedback. Hearing both what players like and don't like about select aspects of gameplay is useful to us.

The entire reason behind him writing that blog sprung from us sending him a particular thread (amongst many other we've been sending him since the launch of Cataclysm) that had him really concerned: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1660221627

He wants to see the tone of the debate changed so we can work together to make this a better game, so it's really unfortunate when you post as though he's throwing the naughty finger in your face. His post was not written from a place of hubris. Those who would take it that way probably just fundamentally disagree with the current design philosophy. But only two things are true in this case: 1) we will never please everyone with our design, and 2) we will never stop listening to our players.

In any event, I appreciate you taking the time to post. I just hope you can keep an open mind and a thoughtful dialog with us, as simply sharing with us how you perceive Ghostcrawler's attitude to be won't move game design anywhere. That's just the reality of it all.


Posted from WoW Vault

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
Arunne 
Title: The Anonymous
Posts: 2,548
Registered: Nov 3, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 2,526
User ID: 852,899
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
WOW! I really can't believe they posted this. Ghostcrawler is a busy man and he took time out to talk to you serfs. You should appreciate that the king is listening to you. Now bow and tell us how well we are doing!

 

-----signature-----
"Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be"
"I may not agree with what you say, but I respect your right to be punished for it."
Link to this post
Eternal_Midnight 
Posts: 19,580
Registered: May 11, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 15,756
User ID: 24,262
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Zarhym posted:
We hear you, but we don't really care.

 

-----signature-----
We have not inherited the Earth from our parents, we have borrowed it from our children.
Link to this post
Festus_Stundagin 
Posts: 12,549
Registered: Jul 15, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 12,216
User ID: 697,554
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Closed wallets + an exit survey speak a metric ton louder than random posts.

 

-----signature-----
Link to this post
Blisteringballs 
Posts: 2,247
Registered: Aug 12, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 2,247
User ID: 1,366,612
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Yea it's more challenging and stuff, forget the fact that the experience is boring and tedious.

Lord in Heaven GC is the worst developer possible to be in charge of WoW. It's like he wants his company to lose customers, and has zero memory. He will be fired, and I can't wait.

 

-----signature-----
Link to this post
GutterSludge 
Posts: 4,620
Registered: Nov 6, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 4,545
User ID: 1,091,587
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Eternal_Midnight posted:
Zarhym posted:
We don't hear you, but we'll post this in the hopes that you will sub for another month, AND we don't really care.

 

-----signature-----
Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
Link to this post
Zero_Washu 
Posts: 13,401
Registered: Sep 28, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 13,151
User ID: 419,410
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
That was one of the wordiest kiss offs I think I have read in a long time. I don't remember this much arrogance in a developer team except back when AC2 was launching.

 

-----signature-----
.
.
. For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven
. Cows go moo, Dogs go woof and MMO players go ''PVP is imbalanced''
. "I’m as horny as the hat rack at a Viking bar.", Ann Coulter
Link to this post
Boone-Eldar 
Title: Infallible
Posts: 16,589
Registered: Dec 28, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 16,173
User ID: 580,486
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
*shrug* I don't see any of the comments in the blogs or their posts on the forums to be condescending at all. Some of you seem to take it personally. It's a game. Lighten up.

 

-----signature-----
Seriously?
raised_brow
Link to this post
st0rmie 
Posts: 5,783
Registered: Apr 20, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 5,764
User ID: 1,043,627
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Zero_Washu posted:
That was one of the wordiest kiss offs I think I have read in a long time. I don't remember this much arrogance in a developer team except back when AC2 was launching.

Where - specifically - is the arrogance in that post? Serious question.

 

-----signature-----
Banquetto <Moonbrook Bowls Club> - 85 Dwarf Priest / Daggerspine
Beliandra <Moonbrook Bowls Club> - 80 Human Rogue / Daggerspine
Beliarchia <Moonbrook Bowls Club> - 80 Draenei Shaman / Daggerspine
Link to this post
IvanDF 
Title: Veni, vidi, vici
Posts: 7,219
Registered: Nov 28, '04
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 7,007
User ID: 998,645
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Here's my opinion on this. Make raids hard, not normal dungeon heroics. Heroics should prepare you for raids, not break you.

 

-----signature-----
360 Gamer Tag: Ivan34
Steam ID: OSUIvan
Link to this post
The_Korrigan 
Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 21,660
Registered: Jul 17, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,292
User ID: 255,861
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Why name the dungeons 'heroic' then, if they aren't harder than normals?
I suggest just putting a gear distributor in each capital so the slack "self proclaimed casuals" can get one piece of gear a week without doing any efforts, in order to help them feel good when they stand doing nothing near the Stormwind/Orgrimmar mailbox.

And Stormie, you missed the main argument of those "people". The main argument is "hard is not fun". They want their epics given for a 30 minute AOE faceroll without any thinking or attention paying involved. That's why they think Ghostcrawler is arrogant right now. Because Ghostcrawler is trying to restore the 'risk vs reward' balance in WoW, and those who like reward without risk don't like it.

 

-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
Link to this post
GutterSludge 
Posts: 4,620
Registered: Nov 6, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 4,545
User ID: 1,091,587
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
I think its the general overtone, st0rmie..

A game should be fun from the get go...

What Blizzard suggests to players that are not having fun is that it will be fun, but only if they hop through a certain number of hoops first.

I can see where people have a hard time clicking on the "resub button", in the hopes that someday, the game will be fun for them.


Fun and enjoyment should never be at the end of a trial by misery, or a trail of hoops.










 

-----signature-----
Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
Link to this post
GutterSludge 
Posts: 4,620
Registered: Nov 6, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 4,545
User ID: 1,091,587
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
The_Korrigan posted:
Why name the dungeons 'heroic' then, if they aren't harder than normals?
I suggest just putting a gear distributor in each capital so the slack "self proclaimed casuals" can get one piece of gear a week without doing any efforts, in order to help them feel good when they stand doing nothing near the Stormwind/Orgrimmar mailbox.


Only elitist asshats worry about feeling good standing at the mailbox, Korrigan.




 

-----signature-----
Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
Link to this post
The_Korrigan 
Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 21,660
Registered: Jul 17, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,292
User ID: 255,861
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
GutterSludge posted:
As usually, I have nothing to say, but I still open my big, smelly mouth.
Indeed.

 

-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
Link to this post
GutterSludge 
Posts: 4,620
Registered: Nov 6, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 4,545
User ID: 1,091,587
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Bait and troll rating for the previous post by Korrigan: 0.005 out of a possible 10.

Reason: User is obviously emotionally affected by the truth of the previous statement.



 

-----signature-----
Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
Link to this post
Spookysheep 
Title: Lieker of Cheese
Posts: 21,595
Registered: Jan 9, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,166
User ID: 601,475
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
LMAO, so untold thousands have obviously sent blizzard feedback that ghostcrawler is an asshat and now they (and he) are getting worried.

Go figure.

 

-----signature-----
I liek cheese
Pirates > Ninjas
.....................................
Link to this post
GutterSludge 
Posts: 4,620
Registered: Nov 6, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 4,545
User ID: 1,091,587
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
I wonder if they would have the balls to put "Ghostcrawler" on the list of reasons for account cancellation??

 

-----signature-----
Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
Link to this post
Spookysheep 
Title: Lieker of Cheese
Posts: 21,595
Registered: Jan 9, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,166
User ID: 601,475
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
GutterSludge posted:
I wonder if they would have the balls to put "Ghostcrawler" on the list of reasons for account cancellation??



I imagine everyone is using the "Other" check box then writing "Ghostcrawler is an asshat".

I know I did grin

 

-----signature-----
I liek cheese
Pirates > Ninjas
.....................................
Link to this post
Ugh_Lancelot 
Title: Ooo...bouncy!
Posts: 5,492
Registered: Jun 17, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 5,446
User ID: 689,383
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
The_Korrigan posted:
GutterSludge posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
I suggest just putting a gear distributor in each capital so the slack "self proclaimed casuals" can get one piece of gear a week without doing any efforts, in order to help them feel good when they stand doing nothing near the Stormwind/Orgrimmar mailbox. I know no casual ever suggested this but I like repeating it frequently as I do so love to beat up strawmen with my [Epic Sword of Compensation]. And I love to troll.


Only elitist asshats worry about feeling good standing at the mailbox, Korrigan.


Indeed.


lol...I guess when everyone BUT the strawman beats the tar out of you, what's left? tongue

 

-----signature-----
WoW and DAoC - Too many alts to count
Charter Member - Altaholics Anonymous
Link to this post
--Syrus-- 
Posts: 7,711
Registered: Dec 2, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 7,639
User ID: 863,847
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
This post, to me, looks like an apology from Ghostcrawler.. written by someone else.

"We're sorry he's an ass, we really are trying to fix this stuff."

 

-----signature-----
Common Sense is a myth..
Its Hub. 10 week ban for anybody who disagrees. -Mithan-
Link to this post
IndridCole 
Posts: 853
Registered: Jan 7, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 853
User ID: 1,343,922
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
I'm noticing an unusual trend of the same posters when the topic of 'difficulty' is brought up. Even stranger is the cookie cutter content of the posts by these people.

thinking

 

-----signature-----
I found something else by accident.
It has become my new passion.
Link to this post
Spookysheep 
Title: Lieker of Cheese
Posts: 21,595
Registered: Jan 9, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,166
User ID: 601,475
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
IndridCole posted:
I'm noticing an unusual trend of the same posters when the topic of 'difficulty' is brought up. Even stranger is the cookie cutter content of the posts by these people.

thinking



Scary isn't it?

 

-----signature-----
I liek cheese
Pirates > Ninjas
.....................................
Link to this post
IndridCole 
Posts: 853
Registered: Jan 7, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 853
User ID: 1,343,922
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Spookysheep posted:
IndridCole posted:
I'm noticing an unusual trend of the same posters when the topic of 'difficulty' is brought up. Even stranger is the cookie cutter content of the posts by these people.

thinking



Scary isn't it?
It is.
In fact I was just wondering where all the people who aren't having these problems are...oh yeah..they're playing.

Silly me.

 

-----signature-----
I found something else by accident.
It has become my new passion.
Link to this post
-Spacelord- 
Posts: 17,650
Registered: Dec 18, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 16,923
User ID: 59,430
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
I don't see the big deal with heroics. I got to 85 with quests, i ran 3-4 normal along finishing all 81-85 quests and i was able to do all heroics with pug easily. I have not tried any raids yet tho.

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
-Mithan- 
Title: VNBoard Admin
Posts: 1,000,060,379
Registered: Mar 1, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 56,880
User ID: 13,156
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
I quit WoW and am having a tonne of fun playing the ACF Minecraft server (find and send Steele Wind a PM on the ACF Forum if you want access and you are not a prick).

Now obviously, Minecraft isn't a "play forever" game like WoW, but it has proven to be a great break.

 

-----signature-----
I survived to the end and got nothing out of it, but hey.
Link to this post
Spookysheep 
Title: Lieker of Cheese
Posts: 21,595
Registered: Jan 9, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,166
User ID: 601,475
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
IndridCole posted:
I'm a casual player.

Considering the gear requirements of dungeons/heroics, plus the time investment that seems ot be required. I can see myself running a dungeon a week. While leveling profs on the side.

Does it bother me? No. Why? Because I enjoy playing the game.

So far I've opened up Stonecore regular. I'll prob run it tomorrow night, making sure to read about the run before I go.

/shrug.



So you have no experience whatsoever in the content everyone is discussing yet here you are with an expert opinion amirite? wink

 

-----signature-----
I liek cheese
Pirates > Ninjas
.....................................
Link to this post
Spookysheep 
Title: Lieker of Cheese
Posts: 21,595
Registered: Jan 9, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,166
User ID: 601,475
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
-Spacelord- posted:
I don't see the big deal with heroics. I got to 85 with quests, i ran 3-4 normal along finishing all 81-85 quests and i was able to do all heroics with pug easily. I have not tried any raids yet tho.



Making stuff up is fun.

 

-----signature-----
I liek cheese
Pirates > Ninjas
.....................................
Link to this post
Spookysheep 
Title: Lieker of Cheese
Posts: 21,595
Registered: Jan 9, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,166
User ID: 601,475
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
-Mithan- posted:
I quit WoW and am having a tonne of fun playing the ACF Minecraft server (find and send Steele Wind a PM on the ACF Forum if you want access and you are not a prick).

Now obviously, Minecraft isn't a "play forever" game like WoW, but it has proven to be a great break.



Is that like a private WoW server?

 

-----signature-----
I liek cheese
Pirates > Ninjas
.....................................
Link to this post
heiromancerdrackus 
Title: Is, indeed, a fat ass.
Posts: 17,283
Registered: Dec 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 17,007
User ID: 573,741
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Spookysheep posted:
-Mithan- posted:
I quit WoW and am having a tonne of fun playing the ACF Minecraft server (find and send Steele Wind a PM on the ACF Forum if you want access and you are not a prick).

Now obviously, Minecraft isn't a "play forever" game like WoW, but it has proven to be a great break.



Is that like a private WoW server?


Minecraft isn't wow, no. And as per Spacelord's comment, good for you. Were you running heroics week 1? Probably not. I congratulate you on being carried post nerf to many dungeons.

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
IndridCole 
Posts: 853
Registered: Jan 7, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 853
User ID: 1,343,922
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Spookysheep posted:
IndridCole posted:
I'm a casual player.

Considering the gear requirements of dungeons/heroics, plus the time investment that seems ot be required. I can see myself running a dungeon a week. While leveling profs on the side.

Does it bother me? No. Why? Because I enjoy playing the game.

So far I've opened up Stonecore regular. I'll prob run it tomorrow night, making sure to read about the run before I go.

/shrug.



So you have no experience whatsoever in the content everyone is discussing yet here you are with an expert opinion amirite? wink
Not an expert opinion, just my own opinion. While everyone one is having pissing contests about heroics I'm opening up content as it comes to me. When I finally do get to heroics I will have at least run the regulars a few times and be properly geared. And if I only get to run one dungeon or heroic a week (because of how long it they seem to take) I'm not going to have a fit about it.
I guess the benefits to being a casual player is being able to play at an enjoyable casual pace.

 

-----signature-----
I found something else by accident.
It has become my new passion.
Link to this post
NukeMage 
Posts: 3,856
Registered: Apr 7, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 3,821
User ID: 666,051
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
I personally think the best solution would be to add a difficulty between the current normal and heroic dungeons. There are a LOT of people who are used to playing WotLK style instances, and there are a strong group of long term players who like the harder challenge. This would be a way to accomodate both and the implementation should not be too terribly hard for Blizzard.



Make the dungeons full of level 86 and mobs tune accordingly.

Make the loot item level 339. NO chaos orb drops! Let the last boss drop one piece of 346 loot and one 339.

Have the exact same types/numbers of boss mechanics as Heroics, just be a good bit more forgiving.

Give a nice sized justice point reward for the first random of the day, no valor, and 50% of the justic points that a heroic normally gives out.



This would allow the more casuals a path to gear up, experience the content and have some fun. This would also allow the people who like the harder runs to gear up and gain points faster, gain orbs, and get to show off their "heroic" gear.

 

-----signature-----
I need a new hobby . .
Ten level 85's (one of each class) in WoW
Back to try out the Feb patch in AC
Link to this post
-Spacelord- 
Posts: 17,650
Registered: Dec 18, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 16,923
User ID: 59,430
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
heiromancerdrackus posted:
Spookysheep posted:
-Mithan- posted:
I quit WoW and am having a tonne of fun playing the ACF Minecraft server (find and send Steele Wind a PM on the ACF Forum if you want access and you are not a prick).

Now obviously, Minecraft isn't a "play forever" game like WoW, but it has proven to be a great break.



Is that like a private WoW server?


Minecraft isn't wow, no. And as per Spacelord's comment, good for you. Were you running heroics week 1? Probably not. I congratulate you on being carried post nerf to many dungeons.


Heroic week 1 was fail for sure. NEWSFLASH! It was new. You blame me for following the gear progression line? I did not enter any heroic until 331 item level. Go moan some more on the official board bud.

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
Boone-Eldar 
Title: Infallible
Posts: 16,589
Registered: Dec 28, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 16,173
User ID: 580,486
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
IndridCole posted:

I guess the benefits to being a casual player is being able to play at an enjoyable casual pace.



Most of the people yapping about being casual on these boards aren't really casual. They play as much as all but the most hardcore of players do. They simply don't like playing the content that is needed to progress your character beyond the level cap unless it is as easy as mindlessly plowing through it like WotLK. Many of these same people have been complaining about any "endgame" that is challenging for years (a few here since the game came out believe it or not), yet continue to play and bash whichever person is in charge for not making the game the way they want it.

Frankly these days I don't really have the time or motivation for things to be a challenge either. Difference is I wait until they ease the content to where it is easy either via nerfing the content or when they release future content patches and allow you to purchase gear that makes the content easy rather than gnashing my teeth and complaining every day about it. As of right now I have 1 character to 85 and have done a few heroics and worked my trade skills up. Not much more really to do now that I find worth my effort so I log in every few days and play an alt for a bit very casually leveling a 2nd char to 85.

 

-----signature-----
Seriously?
raised_brow
Link to this post
Elvionnor 
Posts: ????
Registered: ????
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 0
User ID: 0
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
The problem, as I have experienced it, is that the jump from normal to heroic is simply too great for casual play. Normal dungeons are easy, most dysfunctional pugs manage to complete them with a complete lack of communication, no CC and no assisting. Most of the bosses can be steamrolled with barely a thought to their mechanic. One or two overgeared players trivialize the content.

Heroics on the other hand are really, really tough. It will be a while before you randomly encounter people who significantly outgear them. To be fair there is margin for error but mistakes usaully result in everyone dying rather than just one or two people. Wipes can easily happen on trash which most players have not experienced since BC (if they even remember) and mistakes in boss fights are guaranteed wipes. The degree of teamwork required has had almost no chance to develop. It is incredibly easy and not very time consuming to progress to the point that heroics are your next avenue for advancement.

They trained people to expect success in a reasonable amount of time, gave them maybe 200 hours of casual gameplay in that mold, then gave them a giant cockblock. I can't imagine your average player is going to pay to be frustrated and have their character stagnate.

 

-----signature-----
Link to this post
heiromancerdrackus 
Title: Is, indeed, a fat ass.
Posts: 17,283
Registered: Dec 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 17,007
User ID: 573,741
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
-Spacelord- posted:
heiromancerdrackus posted:
Spookysheep posted:
[quote=-Mithan-]I quit WoW and am having a tonne of fun playing the ACF Minecraft server (find and send Steele Wind a PM on the ACF Forum if you want access and you are not a prick).

Now obviously, Minecraft isn't a "play forever" game like WoW, but it has proven to be a great break.



Is that like a private WoW server?


Minecraft isn't wow, no. And as per Spacelord's comment, good for you. Were you running heroics week 1? Probably not. I congratulate you on being carried post nerf to many dungeons.


Heroic week 1 was fail for sure. NEWSFLASH! It was new. You blame me for following the gear progression line? I did not enter any heroic until 331 item level. Go moan some more on the official board bud.[/quote]

Good for you? Heroics were only difficult the first week BECAUSE of gear. The bitching that is going on now is nonsense. The challenge is gone. Now they are just making it too easy.

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
Pacorra 
Posts: 2,510
Registered: Nov 25, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 2,492
User ID: 861,644
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
It's a bit shocking to see GC & co. show such signs of worry, reacting like that to a forum post that could / should have deleted instantly. Of course, the forum thread is just the trigger.

I guess the elitists who were complaining about wotlk being too easy were still paying, but the casuals complaining about cata being too hard are stopping to do it.

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
huldu 
Posts: 7,490
Registered: Jun 20, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 7,420
User ID: 690,437
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Blizzard wants to make money. Of course they will make it easier. Even with some crappy games coming out soon and "unhappy" casual players whining would be a loss.

Heroic dungeons, raids and whatever you do in WoW its suppose to be fun and people should be able to enjoy it. In the end if people cant "pug" something they will complain. And they are right to do so. With the "dumbing" down on games in general over the last decade, people dont accept seeing "game over" splashed on the screen. If only a small percent of the gaming population can complete a challenge then something is wrong. One problem that arise through a challenge like that is that another gaming company will do something about it. For now it really doesnt matter since nobody is really pushing out any decent mmo, yet, at least. Just stop for a second and think what will happen when that takes place.

Just like WoW came and showed the way another game can do the same thing.

 

-----signature-----
"Boy, the next word that comes out of your mouth better be some brilliant *****' Mark Twain ****. 'Cause it's definitely getting chiseled on your tombstone."
Link to this post
st0rmie 
Posts: 5,783
Registered: Apr 20, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 5,764
User ID: 1,043,627
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
GutterSludge posted:
I think its the general overtone, st0rmie..

A game should be fun from the get go...

What Blizzard suggests to players that are not having fun is that it will be fun, but only if they hop through a certain number of hoops first.

Where - specifically - do they tell players that are not having fun is that it will be fun if they hop through hoops?

 

-----signature-----
Banquetto <Moonbrook Bowls Club> - 85 Dwarf Priest / Daggerspine
Beliandra <Moonbrook Bowls Club> - 80 Human Rogue / Daggerspine
Beliarchia <Moonbrook Bowls Club> - 80 Draenei Shaman / Daggerspine
Link to this post
The_Korrigan 
Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 21,660
Registered: Jul 17, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,292
User ID: 255,861
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
GutterSludge posted:
User is obviously emotionally affected by the truth of the previous statement.
GutterSludge posted:
It isn't a game.


laugh

 

-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
Link to this post
Blisteringballs 
Posts: 2,247
Registered: Aug 12, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 2,247
User ID: 1,366,612
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
st0rmie posted:
GutterSludge posted:
I think its the general overtone, st0rmie..

A game should be fun from the get go...

What Blizzard suggests to players that are not having fun is that it will be fun, but only if they hop through a certain number of hoops first.

Where - specifically - do they tell players that are not having fun is that it will be fun if they hop through hoops?


They've stated that the content will be easier once players (the community as a whole, I presume) acquire better gear, particularly in the next update. So, basically "grit and bear it". I opted out, personally, and of my old guild of about 20 IRL friends, only two still play. Seriously.

 

-----signature-----
Link to this post
The_Korrigan 
Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 21,660
Registered: Jul 17, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,292
User ID: 255,861
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Elvionnor posted:
Heroics on the other hand are really, really tough.
Or maybe they aren't that tough, but just require a bit more attention span than a dead monkey pressing his (damage and/or healing) button? Do you pretend casuals are incapable of that? Then I don't agree with you. Don't confuse casual players, and bad players.

Elvionnor posted:
It will be a while before you randomly encounter people who significantly outgear them.
That's already happening. Raids have started, people are getting geared beyond heroics. When I tank, we barely use any CC anyone, maybe one or twice when there's two healer mobs in a pack.
Problem, if problem there is, lies more in the fact that those well geared people are kinda sick of the bad players I mention above, those who have the attention span of a two year old and are unable to do simple tasks like "don't stand in the fire", and they mostly run guild groups where people, casual or not, know how to play and not be stupid.

The game is an ONLINE game. Fill your friend list. Find a good tank and a good healer if you aren't one of those. Show them that you are a good player too, and that you don't "stand in fire". Make your daily heroic with those people and two other randoms. You'll see that it's not that hard when you have 3/5 people who aren't scrubs. Hell, you may even find it enjoyable that it's not a simple faceroll but that there's some challenge involved.

 

-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
Link to this post
steveC91 
Posts: 480
Registered: Mar 28, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 477
User ID: 784,400
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
The_Korrigan posted:
Why name the dungeons 'heroic' then, if they aren't harder than normals?
I suggest just putting a gear distributor in each capital so the slack "self proclaimed casuals" can get one piece of gear a week without doing any efforts, in order to help them feel good when they stand doing nothing near the Stormwind/Orgrimmar mailbox.

And Stormie, you missed the main argument of those "people". The main argument is "hard is not fun". They want their epics given for a 30 minute AOE faceroll without any thinking or attention paying involved. That's why they think Ghostcrawler is arrogant right now. Because Ghostcrawler is trying to restore the 'risk vs reward' balance in WoW, and those who like reward without risk don't like it.



We can always expect a well thought out and balanced view from Korrigan applause

 

-----signature-----
In the heat and the rain,
With whips and chains,
To see him fly.
So many die.
Link to this post
Spookysheep 
Title: Lieker of Cheese
Posts: 21,595
Registered: Jan 9, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,166
User ID: 601,475
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
laugh

 

-----signature-----
I liek cheese
Pirates > Ninjas
.....................................
Link to this post
The_Korrigan 
Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 21,660
Registered: Jul 17, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,292
User ID: 255,861
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
steveC91 posted:
We can always expect a well thought out and balanced view from Korrigan applause

And you can always expect a one liner without any argumentation from the usual scrubs, and their usual kindergarten courtyard hero club friend to pat them on the back.

 

-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
Link to this post
GutterSludge 
Posts: 4,620
Registered: Nov 6, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 4,545
User ID: 1,091,587
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
st0rmie posted:
GutterSludge posted:
I think its the general overtone, st0rmie..

A game should be fun from the get go...

What Blizzard suggests to players that are not having fun is that it will be fun, but only if they hop through a certain number of hoops first.

Where - specifically - do they tell players that are not having fun is that it will be fun if they hop through hoops?


St0rmie, have you read GC's post that this refers to? I'm guessing you haven't.

 

-----signature-----
Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
Link to this post
Elvionnor 
Posts: ????
Registered: ????
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 0
User ID: 0
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
The_Korrigan posted:
When I tank, we barely use any CC anyone, maybe one or twice when there's two healer mobs in a pack.



And the last time crowd control was used outside of a raid was 2007.

The_Korrigan posted:
Elvionnor posted:
Heroics on the other hand are really, really tough.
Or maybe they aren't that tough, but just require a bit more attention span than a dead monkey pressing his (damage and/or healing) button? Do you pretend casuals are incapable of that? Then I don't agree with you. Don't confuse casual players, and bad players.


Where did anyone claim that the attention span of casual players was a problem? If you are going to go to the trouble to quote me at least use an argument I raised or maybe even something I might have implied. I don't think that was in reference to anything I wrote.


The_Korrigan posted:
[
Elvionnor posted:
It will be a while before you randomly encounter people who significantly outgear them.
That's already happening. Raids have started, people are getting geared beyond heroics. When I tank, we barely use any CC anyone, maybe one or twice when there's two healer mobs in a pack.
Problem, if problem there is, lies more in the fact that those well geared people are kinda sick of the bad players I mention above, those who have the attention span of a two year old and are unable to do simple tasks like "don't stand in the fire", and they mostly run guild groups where people, casual or not, know how to play and not be stupid.


No, random players that significantly outgear the heroic encounters are not often seen in RDF groups. You said it yourself, they are in guild groups, where is your argument? Most of us casuals realize that raid geared players don't want to run heroics with us and it will be a while before others with our casual playstyle have the level of gear of the current crop of raiders and we start popping up in pugs.


The_Korrigan posted:
The game is an ONLINE game. Fill your friend list. Find a good tank and a good healer if you aren't one of those. Show them that you are a good player too, and that you don't "stand in fire". Make your daily heroic with those people and two other randoms. You'll see that it's not that hard when you have 3/5 people who aren't scrubs. Hell, you may even find it enjoyable that it's not a simple faceroll but that there's some challenge involved.



No kidding? I've been playing MMO games since 1998, I don't really need your advice. You can be happy with the game and playstyle you are paying for, I don't neccessarily have to be and I'm not. Many other casual players are unhappy also. You can continue with your elitist thought processes while us casauls vote with our wallets, we will see who wins out.



 

-----signature-----
Link to this post
jioss 
Posts: 970
Registered: Oct 2, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 903
User ID: 1,081,744
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
well said. I zoned into a normal instance (no clue which) with my 4 level 85 mages, and pretty much got throttled first pull. /shrug... I cancelled my 4 accounts.

I have much better things to do with my life than listen to some know-it-all barking orders in pugs. I deal with that crap ever day from the governement, and I sure as $%#! am not dealing with it in a video game~

If Blizzard wants to make a game about hopping on one foot, I can do that without logging on.

simon says... ALT-F4!!

 

-----signature-----
.
Link to this post
The_Korrigan 
Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 21,660
Registered: Jul 17, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,292
User ID: 255,861
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Elvionnor posted:
No kidding? I've been playing MMO games since 1998, I don't really need your advice. You can be happy with the game and playstyle you are paying for, I don't neccessarily have to be and I'm not. Many other casual players are unhappy also. You can continue with your elitist thought processes while us casauls vote with our wallets, we will see who wins out.
I play MMOs since UO beta, so I come from there too. Since UO, it was always true that one does better in those games when he's in a guild, part of a group he regularly plays with.
And also stop insulting casuals. Many casuals aren't slackers, but good players who don't cry about heroics, but beat them. What you describe is the lone wolf who doesn't want to associate with anyone but wants to reap all the rewards without effort. That's a slacker, not a casual. That's the kind of people with crap gear, doing crap damage but expecting to get the best and having the rest of their group carry them through the instance. And if some of those quit the game, to be honest, and yes this is elitist... good riddance, it can only make the community as a whole better. Self entitled supposed "casuals" are the worse part of MMO population, responsible of dumbing them down until there's absolutely no challenge left.

 

-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
Link to this post
JzeroVN 
Posts: 9,910
Registered: Mar 16, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 9,766
User ID: 75,232
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
The_Korrigan posted:
Elvionnor posted:
No kidding? I've been playing MMO games since 1998, I don't really need your advice. You can be happy with the game and playstyle you are paying for, I don't neccessarily have to be and I'm not. Many other casual players are unhappy also. You can continue with your elitist thought processes while us casauls vote with our wallets, we will see who wins out.
I play MMOs since UO beta, so I come from there too. Since UO, it was always true that one does better in those games when he's in a guild, part of a group he regularly plays with.
And also stop insulting casuals. Many casuals aren't slackers, but good players who don't cry about heroics, but beat them. What you describe is the lone wolf who doesn't want to associate with anyone but wants to reap all the rewards without effort. That's a slacker, not a casual. That's the kind of people with crap gear, doing crap damage but expecting to get the best and having the rest of their group carry them through the instance. And if some of those quit the game, to be honest, and yes this is elitist... good riddance, it can only make the community as a whole better. Self entitled supposed "casuals" are the worse part of MMO population, responsible of dumbing them down until there's absolutely no challenge left.


The only people responsible for dumbing down the game are the people at Blizzard (or whoever controls them if they aren't actually in control anymore). They invited the masses to play their game - you can't be surprised when the masses play a different way and at a different level then the people who played these games when you had to walk everywhere, meditate between fights, and put up with all sorts of annoyances/time-sinks that would send the masses headed for the door in two seconds. Blizzard asked for this population of players.

And that strawman about "What you describe is the lone wolf who doesn't want to associate with anyone but wants to reap all the rewards without effort." holds no water today and never has. That's not what most of these people are like or what they ask for yet you prop it up to knock down as if it were. Asking for something to be less isn't automatically asking for it to be nothing. Toning something down doesn't make it trivial unless the devs are incable doing anything but extreme changes.

 

-----signature-----
http://www.TheOrderoftheSilverHand.com
Rift: Reclaimer-PvP, Guardian
Krashkart - cleric: sometimes I heal but don't bet your life on it wink
Myxmo - Bard
"Remember kids, VN boards are for entertainment purposes only." - Spookysheep, 12/20/2010
Link to this post
GutterSludge 
Posts: 4,620
Registered: Nov 6, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 4,545
User ID: 1,091,587
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
The_Korrigan posted:
Elvionnor posted:
No kidding? I've been playing MMO games since 1998, I don't really need your advice. You can be happy with the game and playstyle you are paying for, I don't neccessarily have to be and I'm not. Many other casual players are unhappy also. You can continue with your elitist thought processes while us casauls vote with our wallets, we will see who wins out.
I play MMOs since UO beta, so I come from there too. Since UO, it was always true that one does better in those games when he's in a guild, part of a group he regularly plays with.
And also stop insulting casuals. Many casuals aren't slackers, but good players who don't cry about heroics, but beat them. What you describe is the lone wolf who doesn't want to associate with anyone but wants to reap all the rewards without effort. That's a slacker, not a casual. That's the kind of people with crap gear, doing crap damage but expecting to get the best and having the rest of their group carry them through the instance. And if some of those quit the game, to be honest, and yes this is elitist... good riddance, it can only make the community as a whole better. Self entitled supposed "casuals" are the worse part of MMO population, responsible of dumbing them down until there's absolutely no challenge left.



I have to agree with this statement, even though I am labeled as casual partly because I refuse to belong to a guild, and partly because I refuse to play by a set schedule that raiding would require.

And, since we are throwing it out there, I have played online multiplayer games since they were text based on BBS's, which is WHY I refuse to belong to a guild. Where groups of people are involved, there is drama, and I simply have no time for drama, even if it would mean faster progression, ease of heroics, and not dealing with the RDF.

To me, Cata is fine, but I am not the typical "casual" player.

All of this will be forgotten anyway when new tiers of armor become available to purchase with JP's..

 

-----signature-----
Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
Link to this post
Elvionnor 
Posts: ????
Registered: ????
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 0
User ID: 0
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
GutterSludge posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
Elvionnor posted:
No kidding? I've been playing MMO games since 1998, I don't really need your advice. You can be happy with the game and playstyle you are paying for, I don't neccessarily have to be and I'm not. Many other casual players are unhappy also. You can continue with your elitist thought processes while us casauls vote with our wallets, we will see who wins out.
I play MMOs since UO beta, so I come from there too. Since UO, it was always true that one does better in those games when he's in a guild, part of a group he regularly plays with.
And also stop insulting casuals. Many casuals aren't slackers, but good players who don't cry about heroics, but beat them. What you describe is the lone wolf who doesn't want to associate with anyone but wants to reap all the rewards without effort. That's a slacker, not a casual. That's the kind of people with crap gear, doing crap damage but expecting to get the best and having the rest of their group carry them through the instance. And if some of those quit the game, to be honest, and yes this is elitist... good riddance, it can only make the community as a whole better. Self entitled supposed "casuals" are the worse part of MMO population, responsible of dumbing them down until there's absolutely no challenge left.



I have to agree with this statement, even though I am labeled as casual partly because I refuse to belong to a guild, and partly because I refuse to play by a set schedule that raiding would require.

And, since we are throwing it out there, I have played online multiplayer games since they were text based on BBS's, which is WHY I refuse to belong to a guild. Where groups of people are involved, there is drama, and I simply have no time for drama, even if it would mean faster progression, ease of heroics, and not dealing with the RDF.

To me, Cata is fine, but I am not the typical "casual" player.

All of this will be forgotten anyway when new tiers of armor become available to purchase with JP's..



I agree 100% also but I never insulted casuals. I'm a casual but I have a reasonable idea of what I am doing. I have and will screw up but I mostly know my class (just returned, quit after vanilla) and if something is explained to me I can probably get it done. From level 60 to 85 with IL 336 in 5 weeks? The problem is that the vast majority of the playerbase will never reach the skill level needed to complete those instances and they are easily finding themselves at the point where that is their only avenue for advancement. All they really need to do is give the healers the ability to compensate for mistakes and everything would be fine. The margin for error is to small right now.

 

-----signature-----
Link to this post
TruthyID 
Posts: 365
Registered: Jul 7, '10
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 365
User ID: 1,397,686
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
For me anyway this expansion feels a bit schizophrenic, like it was created by two different dev teams with two different design philosophies.

On the one hand Cataclysm seems to be designed to make WoW less intimidating to new players, especially those new to MMOs. Tooltips have been made more specific, skills light up on the action bars, quests are easier, the list goes on. Overall, the new 1-60 content seems to have been designed with an eye toward, inclusiveness, ease of use, and accessibility.

On the other hand, the lvl 85 instanced content is exactly the opposite, the lvl 85 content seems to be designed to weed out "the bads." It's as though the dungeon designers are trying to run off the people that were brought to the game by the new low level content.

I think that much of the frustration that people are feeling comes from the sudden shift between the two paradigms. There's really nothing in the 1-85 content that teaches players what they need to know to succeed in heroics. Even after playing this game since just after launch the transition from regular 5 mans to heroic was jarring. For new players it must feel like hitting a brick wall, "thanks for purchasing Cataclysm, this is as far as you go noob."

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
IndridCole 
Posts: 853
Registered: Jan 7, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 853
User ID: 1,343,922
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
jioss posted:
well said. I zoned into a normal instance (no clue which) with my 4 level 85 mages, and pretty much got throttled first pull. /shrug... I cancelled my 4 accounts.

I have much better things to do with my life than listen to some know-it-all barking orders in pugs. I deal with that crap ever day from the governement, and I sure as $%#! am not dealing with it in a video game~

If Blizzard wants to make a game about hopping on one foot, I can do that without logging on.

simon says... ALT-F4!!


It definately sounds like you made the right choice.

 

-----signature-----
I found something else by accident.
It has become my new passion.
Link to this post
The_Korrigan 
Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 21,660
Registered: Jul 17, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,292
User ID: 255,861
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Elvionnor posted:
The margin for error is to small right now for me.
Edited the bold part in. The fact that you are incapable of doing some content doesn't make it too hard. It just makes YOU not good enough, for now, to do it. I'm surprised that you, claiming to be an MMORPG veteran and not one of those noobs always used to faceroll content, can't accept the fact that sometimes, you can also lose, since that was actually a daily reality in games like Ultima Online.

 

-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
Link to this post
kyrv 
Title: Lord Logicus
Posts: 14,420
Registered: Jan 31, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 14,357
User ID: 639,081
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Spookysheep posted:
LMAO, so untold thousands have obviously sent blizzard feedback that ghostcrawler is an asshat and now they (and he) are getting worried.

Go figure.


I read it as, GC's post was not as condescending as usual, and he even provided helpful hitns, so I'm going to write this follow-up condescending post.

Korrigan and others though are right about heroics, but the problem is, heroics are practically required if you want to do the end game stuff and get geared. It's not, well do normals and it will take longer (that's correct right?). Blizz made it a requirement and also set the expectation level for the player.

Now they are doing a bait and switch. Yes players are a**hats and expect for some reason to PUG something with cr*p gear, but still, the design is Blizz's.

They've created a nice little problem for themselves. This is pretty interesting. For this follow-up post, there must be interesting things going on behind the scenes.

Note to Blizz, posts that aren't arrogant or contain hubris don't need to have follow-up posts stating that they aren't arrogant or contain hubris. wink

 

-----signature-----
CO, LOTRO, RoM, PWI, CoH
Dragon Age
Link to this post
--Syrus-- 
Posts: 7,711
Registered: Dec 2, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 7,639
User ID: 863,847
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
kyrv posted:
Spookysheep posted:
LMAO, so untold thousands have obviously sent blizzard feedback that ghostcrawler is an asshat and now they (and he) are getting worried.

Go figure.


I read it as, GC's post was not as condescending as usual, and he even provided helpful hitns, so I'm going to write this follow-up condescending post.

Korrigan and others though are right about heroics, but the problem is, heroics are practically required if you want to do the end game stuff and get geared. It's not, well do normals and it will take longer (that's correct right?). Blizz made it a requirement and also set the expectation level for the player.

Now they are doing a bait and switch. Yes players are a**hats and expect for some reason to PUG something with cr*p gear, but still, the design is Blizz's.

They've created a nice little problem for themselves. This is pretty interesting. For this follow-up post, there must be interesting things going on behind the scenes.

Note to Blizz, posts that aren't arrogant or contain hubris don't need to have follow-up posts stating that they aren't arrogant or contain hubris. wink


Ah I like post, couldn't have said it better myself.

 

-----signature-----
Common Sense is a myth..
Its Hub. 10 week ban for anybody who disagrees. -Mithan-
Link to this post
croaks35 
Posts: 127
Registered: Jul 20, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 127
User ID: 1,364,192
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
I think they are getting to a crossroads like they were with Van WoW they are gonna have to pick cater to the hardcore who are probly 1/4 of there sub base or cater to the casual players who are 3/4 of there sub base.Wanna take a bet on who will win out?

I am not complaining about the heroics I will continue to play how I play as long as it is fun I did the whole raiding is my life thing in the old 40 man days and decided I wanted to actually have fun and not feel everynight I was working my 2nd job in the hopes I might get some gear at some point.Both aspects are fun hardcore raiding and casual heroics that were in wrath.I guess I lean more toward the casual side now as I simply do not have the rl time anymore to run 5 hours of heroics a day.

I will just keep playing alts and doing other things in WoW so long as it is interesting to me.

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
--Syrus-- 
Posts: 7,711
Registered: Dec 2, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 7,639
User ID: 863,847
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
croaks35 posted:
I think they are getting to a crossroads like they were with Van WoW they are gonna have to pick cater to the hardcore who are probly 1/4 of there sub base or cater to the casual players who are 3/4 of there sub base.Wanna take a bet on who will win out?

I am not complaining about the heroics I will continue to play how I play as long as it is fun I did the whole raiding is my life thing in the old 40 man days and decided I wanted to actually have fun and not feel everynight I was working my 2nd job in the hopes I might get some gear at some point.Both aspects are fun hardcore raiding and casual heroics that were in wrath.I guess I lean more toward the casual side now as I simply do not have the rl time anymore to run 5 hours of heroics a day.

I will just keep playing alts and doing other things in WoW so long as it is interesting to me.


I don't think that casual players should be complaining about the heroic content at this point, if they truly are casual.

 

-----signature-----
Common Sense is a myth..
Its Hub. 10 week ban for anybody who disagrees. -Mithan-
Link to this post
Ugh_Lancelot 
Title: Ooo...bouncy!
Posts: 5,492
Registered: Jun 17, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 5,446
User ID: 689,383
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
kyrv posted:
Note to Blizz, posts that aren't arrogant or contain hubris don't need to have follow-up posts stating that they aren't arrogant or contain hubris. wink
lol...so true.

 

-----signature-----
WoW and DAoC - Too many alts to count
Charter Member - Altaholics Anonymous
Link to this post
The_Korrigan 
Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 21,660
Registered: Jul 17, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,292
User ID: 255,861
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
kyrv posted:
Korrigan and others though are right about heroics, but the problem is, heroics are practically required if you want to do the end game stuff and get geared.
Those who whine about heroics don't do "end game stuff". If they think not standing in fire in the heroics is too hard, do you even imagine how loud they will whine about the first raid boss they have to fight? Those guys wouldn't even pass the first trash in Bastion of Twilight.

croaks35 posted:
I think they are getting to a crossroads like they were with Van WoW they are gonna have to pick cater to the hardcore who are probly 1/4 of there sub base or cater to the casual players who are 3/4 of there sub base.Wanna take a bet on who will win out?
You seem to assume that 3/4 of the sub base is SLACKER casuals. You forget than most casuals do the heroics just fine, and a little minority only do whine on forums. The same who always feel they are self-entitled to everything in the game just because they pay a subscription.

 

-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
Link to this post
MinionX-DW 
Posts: 15,174
Registered: Jan 3, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 14,832
User ID: 589,439
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
It isn't so much that the dungeon themselves are super hard, It's that you will most likely get a bad player with random dungeon queue.. and one bad player will wipe you in these instances..

I mean take Deadmines.. Dead Mines is pretty damn simple of a dungeon.. The Werewolf Boss is the hardest guy there.. and if you have one guy who just doesn't focus on the adds you will wipe...

The absolute worst 2 dungeons i've played have been Stonecore and Throne of Tides...

They rely far to much on CC, Stonecore you have to CC some mobs that frankly if they "pop" will wipe your group, and that's trash mobs.. Then you get to the first boss, who is frankly the most annoying boss in the world.. People either get hit by him coming from the ground (and I can't blame them, as i've been hit by him when i'm no where near him) and it's an instant one shot.. or they don't blow up the little pink crystal things..

Throne of Tides though is the most annoying.. the first boss again is bloody crazy.. Mainly because the whirlwinds look exactly like every part of the room..and if you're like me.. you get caught by them while watching other people get caught by them ;o)

It's like a Deer in the headlights issue hehe

The Healer mobs in that dungeon are retarded as well.. Lets assume I have an awesome Silence like my Feral Druid.. Those mobs will still heal their ass off.. if you can't keep them chain silenced for the ENTIRE fight.. they will just keep healing.. Which means if you don't have someone in the group like a Feral Druid or Protection Warrior combo.. You're screwed.. My Warlock for example is virtually useless against them.. I have one silence on a crap people that's got a 30 second cooldown..

 

-----signature-----
Terravos - RR11L2 Valkyrie Merlin Server -
Skullthrone Destruction
Badlands Order
RIP Dr. Tiller
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3605/roflve.jpg
Link to this post
IndridCole 
Posts: 853
Registered: Jan 7, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 853
User ID: 1,343,922
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
I got to run Stonecore last night and if it wasn't for the videos the boss fights would have been tough.

We wiped on more trash than anything else.

The last boss we just couldn't finish.

When the mobs came out and aggro'd others (those that got aggro'd) they wouldn't run to me to pick up. We couldn't get someone to successfully interupt the slam attack so when I couldn't pick up the mobs I was being slammed.

Otherwise the dungeon was fun.

And I know more for next time.

 

-----signature-----
I found something else by accident.
It has become my new passion.
Link to this post
Zero_Washu 
Posts: 13,401
Registered: Sep 28, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 13,151
User ID: 419,410
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
croaks35 posted:
I think they are getting to a crossroads like they were with Van WoW they are gonna have to pick cater to the hardcore who are probly 1/4 of there sub base or cater to the casual players who are 3/4 of there sub base.Wanna take a bet on who will win out?

I will just keep playing alts and doing other things in WoW so long as it is interesting to me.


Hardcore is far less than a quarter of their subs, unless you include water cooler hard cores (those who boast on message boards about it being easy/etc). I would doubt that what many call hardcore is nothing more than that. As in, the real hard core you see on sites like MMO champion with their world firsts. Even using some of the ranking sites its easy to see their numbers are incredibly small.

As for who will out, it won't be decided before 4.10 simply because the developers are being very hard headed. Reading the super long forum posts for blue snippets in regards to heroics and heals it becomes very obvious they want it to be a certain way and because they cannot properly design encounters to be challenging they nerfed healing to make up for it. By the time 4.2 rolls out it will be very interesting.

The guild I am a member of used to see 35 to 40 plus at prime time. We are lucky to break 30 now. Being very social I got to listen in on many good byes via vent. Some just vanished and never came back. Used to be if you wanted a run you got it. Now we have at most one tank who will run and another who will when pressed. Heals wise only the two FOTM class players are having any luck (paladin and priest).

I think that Blizz is going to find just who is paying their bills but will they recognize it? With all the arrogant build up to Cata about the need to make healers challenged because they were all bored shows a dev team locked into a particular mindset and getting them out won't be easy.

I play WOW for fun. Right now none of the Cata instances are fun, especially not when run as heroic. Far too many in my guild apparently feel the same. That does not bode well.

 

-----signature-----
.
.
. For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven
. Cows go moo, Dogs go woof and MMO players go ''PVP is imbalanced''
. "I’m as horny as the hat rack at a Viking bar.", Ann Coulter
Link to this post
Urk_VN 
Title: Orderly Randomizer
Posts: 8,320
Registered: Oct 30, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 7,922
User ID: 733,088
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
MinionX-DW posted:
It isn't so much that the dungeon themselves are super hard, It's that you will most likely get a bad player with random dungeon queue.. and one bad player will wipe you in these instances..

I mean take Deadmines.. Dead Mines is pretty damn simple of a dungeon.. The Werewolf Boss is the hardest guy there.. and if you have one guy who just doesn't focus on the adds you will wipe...

The absolute worst 2 dungeons i've played have been Stonecore and Throne of Tides...

They rely far to much on CC, Stonecore you have to CC some mobs that frankly if they "pop" will wipe your group, and that's trash mobs.. Then you get to the first boss, who is frankly the most annoying boss in the world.. People either get hit by him coming from the ground (and I can't blame them, as i've been hit by him when i'm no where near him) and it's an instant one shot.. or they don't blow up the little pink crystal things..

Throne of Tides though is the most annoying.. the first boss again is bloody crazy.. Mainly because the whirlwinds look exactly like every part of the room..and if you're like me.. you get caught by them while watching other people get caught by them ;o)

It's like a Deer in the headlights issue hehe

The Healer mobs in that dungeon are retarded as well.. Lets assume I have an awesome Silence like my Feral Druid.. Those mobs will still heal their ass off.. if you can't keep them chain silenced for the ENTIRE fight.. they will just keep healing.. Which means if you don't have someone in the group like a Feral Druid or Protection Warrior combo.. You're screwed.. My Warlock for example is virtually useless against them.. I have one silence on a crap people that's got a 30 second cooldown..

Minion, you described one of the core design problems with heroics, specifically CC. What I don't understand is that Blizzard wants us to CC, but then the CC given to us are extremely limited. For example, some abilities that interrupt spellcasting are on an extremely long cooldown, and then they only work for a few seconds at most, after which, the mob goes right back to casting stuff. Skull bashed that caster from healing? Great, except like 3 seconds later they're right back to casting that heal spell again.

Sure, you could sheep them, but what if it's an demon mob? Sure, you could banish, but what if you don't have a warlock? A pally could attempt to fear them, but fearing is kind of retarded in that if the mob runs into other mobs, they then cause those mobs to aggro you as well (the warlock glyph that locks them in place makes fear a useful CC though, provided you don't hit them). So oftentimes you won't see fear being used unless it's an extreme last resort.

I think one thing they could do to alleviate CC issues is to remove the restrictions on what CC can be cast on. I understand that right now they do it this way to make it more challenging, and gives classes certain benefits for being in the group. But honestly, why give druids a sleep spell that only works on dragonkin/beasts, when you're then in a dungeon that has humanoids, undead, and demons only? Sure, they can root, but that's not going to stop a caster mob from casting on you, although I will at least say thank goodness they got rid of the "can only use outdoors" restriction on it. Priests have to spec to get silence, which then only lasts 5 seconds, and is on a 45 second cooldown. Ooh, on mobs it interupts spellcasting for 3 seconds, even less time than than the duration of the silence.

I wouldn't mind using CC in heroics, but man, they suck for the most part, so why bother?

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
--Syrus-- 
Posts: 7,711
Registered: Dec 2, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 7,639
User ID: 863,847
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Meh, I think CC is just fine.

Back in the day of 15 man UBRS you had to make sure you brought the right classes in order to be able to CC the right mobs. If you are doing a dungeon that has a lot of demon mobs to be CC'ed you are not doing it right if you don't bring a lock. Same goes if you are going through a humanoid dungeon with out a rogue.

CC used to be manditory, now people just don't want to bother with it at all. The heroic content may be a little over the top right now, however saying "CC is too hard why bother" is a perfect example of players being too lazy to learn how to play their class right and form cohesive groups.

 

-----signature-----
Common Sense is a myth..
Its Hub. 10 week ban for anybody who disagrees. -Mithan-
Link to this post
Malachi256 
Posts: 2,454
Registered: Nov 12, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 2,433
User ID: 737,559
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
The problem with making heroics easier is that people will quickly realize that there's nothing else to do once they've got the heroics on farm (and there's basically no reason to farm them - gearing up to blue 346 is extremely easy, and usually done, once you've got a few heroics under your belt). Raiding will certainly require the skill set that people seem to be lacking to get the current heroics done, so that won't be a good 'next avenue' of advancement.

 

-----signature-----
Explorer / Soloer+Small groups / Some PvP
MMOin' since UO beta, still waiting for UO 2.0 done right
Link to this post
Zero_Washu 
Posts: 13,401
Registered: Sep 28, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 13,151
User ID: 419,410
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
CC is fine if you control the group composition which mostly puts LFD off limits if you want a smooth run

 

-----signature-----
.
.
. For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven
. Cows go moo, Dogs go woof and MMO players go ''PVP is imbalanced''
. "I’m as horny as the hat rack at a Viking bar.", Ann Coulter
Link to this post
Kriegprojekt 
Posts: 2,653
Registered: Apr 12, '10
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 2,591
User ID: 1,390,814
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
They are clueless and none of them have a customer service background I think. They might be super intelligent when it comes to coding and developing a game, but they are dumb as rocks when dealing with people.

They dont seem to understand, its not what THEY mean in their posts/blogs whatever. Its what their CUSTOMERS percieve from what they are writing. They may have some great intentions for the game and never in a million years meant to come off as obnoxious asses, but their customers feel they did and that is all that matters. They really need to do some damage control with some quality assurance people so it doesnt get worse.

Clueless.

 

-----signature-----
http://www.immortal-guild.com/
Deepstrike Server
Milkman - Guardian Bard
Link to this post
NukeMage 
Posts: 3,856
Registered: Apr 7, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 3,821
User ID: 666,051
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Hey folks, if you would not mind, I would like some feedback on the idea I posted way above.

Why/why not would that work and at least ease peoples frustration with the current incarnation of Heroics?

 

-----signature-----
I need a new hobby . .
Ten level 85's (one of each class) in WoW
Back to try out the Feb patch in AC
Link to this post
GutterSludge 
Posts: 4,620
Registered: Nov 6, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 4,545
User ID: 1,091,587
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
By the time they implemented this, the people it would benefit would already outgear this "new" content.

 

-----signature-----
Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
Link to this post
st0rmie 
Posts: 5,783
Registered: Apr 20, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 5,764
User ID: 1,043,627
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
GutterSludge posted:
st0rmie posted:
Where - specifically - do they tell players that are not having fun is that it will be fun if they hop through hoops?

St0rmie, have you read GC's post that this refers to? I'm guessing you haven't.

I have read it, and I would like you to point out where - specifically - he tells players that are not having fun is that it will be fun if they hop through hoops?

Blisteringballs pointed out above that "they've stated that the content will be easier once players (the community as a whole, I presume) acquire better gear, particularly in the next update." Ghostcrawler does indeed state that the content is "only going to get easier from here on out," which is of course true.

But what he is not saying is "hard is not fun, when you outgear it and it becomes easier, it will become fun." He is saying that Blizzard understand that it is not fun for everyone; that a different approach would be not fun for a different segment of the playerbase; and here are some tips which hopefully might make it more fun for you if you're not having fun now. Not "hoops" for you to hop through - ideas you might like to try.

Look, obviously there is no tuning point which is going to be right for everyone. The differences in skill, dedication, experience and knowledge across the whole spectrum of WoW's playerbase are almost incomprehensibly immense. Everyone knows this, Blizzard knows this, and I think they have given a very good explanation for their tuning: it can't be right for everyone, and it's better to tune it middle of the road now, too hard for some, too easy for some, in the knowledge that it's only ever going to get easier. The alternative would be to make it too hard for nobody, too easy for almost everybody, just so the least skilled, dedicated, experienced etc. players could cruise through it. Imagine the state of the game when it got even easier from there. Actually you don't have to imagine: you just have to have zoned in to a WotLK heroic at any time during 2010.

But as I asked on page one of this thread: where is the arrogance? Where is the arrogance in Ghostcrawler's blog. It was as far as possible from "this is right because I said so", he explains in great detail the thought processes behind their decisions, apologizes to those whose enjoyment has been hurt by these design decisions, and offers a bunch of advice for how they might be able to increase their enjoyment. What is arrogant about this post? Nobody can answer that simple question.

 

-----signature-----
Banquetto <Moonbrook Bowls Club> - 85 Dwarf Priest / Daggerspine
Beliandra <Moonbrook Bowls Club> - 80 Human Rogue / Daggerspine
Beliarchia <Moonbrook Bowls Club> - 80 Draenei Shaman / Daggerspine
Link to this post
MinionX-DW 
Posts: 15,174
Registered: Jan 3, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 14,832
User ID: 589,439
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
What really po's me is, they nerf the crap out of AOE on most of the tank classes, and say "Well you won't have to AOE as much"

But every single dungeon i've been in so far, You've got to AOE your balls off..

Plus maintain CC..

The new Heroics are not challenging.. They're just unfun period.

It takes 30-40 Mins to get in a dungeon as a DPS... and if it wipes, I've just wasted all that time + however far I got in..

i'm not going to sit another 30-40 mins doing squat while I wait..

 

-----signature-----
Terravos - RR11L2 Valkyrie Merlin Server -
Skullthrone Destruction
Badlands Order
RIP Dr. Tiller
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3605/roflve.jpg
Link to this post
Elvionnor 
Posts: ????
Registered: ????
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 0
User ID: 0
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
The_Korrigan posted:
Elvionnor posted:
The margin for error is to small right now for me.
Edited the bold part in. The fact that you are incapable of doing some content doesn't make it too hard. It just makes YOU not good enough, for now, to do it. I'm surprised that you, claiming to be an MMORPG veteran and not one of those noobs always used to faceroll content, can't accept the fact that sometimes, you can also lose, since that was actually a daily reality in games like Ultima Online.



Actually you're probably right, I was just ticked off lol. I was on a 14 hour ML 3 raid.

 

-----signature-----
Link to this post
croaks35 
Posts: 127
Registered: Jul 20, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 127
User ID: 1,364,192
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Zero_Washu posted:
CC is fine if you control the group composition which mostly puts LFD off limits if you want a smooth run




Yup exactly I am used to CC from old Vanilla WoW problem is that lfd tool needs to be worked on if they wanna plan on using it to that degree.Nothing sucks worse as a healer to jump in that queue and see the team fill up with a tank druid,2 dps warriors and a dk.These ppl have sat in queue for 45 mins not fair to dump them and have them wait again and it sure as hell isn't fun to try to heal that mess.

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
nisarg4ever 
Posts: ????
Registered: ????
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 0
User ID: 0
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
I don't understand how this expansion is any different than other expansions.

Don't take RDF into account because to ensure successful RDF runs, they will need to design the game with lowest common denominator. Don't forget RDF was added in patch 3.3 where most of the early content in wrath was already trivialized by gear inflation.

Once we take out RDF, I do not see heroics being hard at all. They are challenging, but which content isn't challenging when its newly released? How many people successfully completed Halls of Reflection or one of the new ICC heroics when they were released in instance appropriate gear? I don't remember anyone pugging ICC until the buff kicked in either. I play on low progression servers, so things maybe different on higher progression servers.

When a new content is released, it is meant to be done with a premade group who communicates and coordinates. If you remember wrath, remember skadi gauntlet in ilvl 187 gear? remember insanity on last boss of old kingdom? They weren't easy and you needed guild group or well known pug groups to complete most of them.

I am not gonna touch fun or unfun part because thats subjective opinion.. but I reckon these heroics will just be as faceroll as wrath heroics in patch 4.3 except you have to avoid those one shot mechanics.. they are not very hard to avoid tbh.

And the content will only get easier, not harder.

 

-----signature-----
Link to this post
GutterSludge 
Posts: 4,620
Registered: Nov 6, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 4,545
User ID: 1,091,587
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
St0rmie,

In one sentence, he states the he "hears" the crowd that is not having fun, and that he understands....


"First, let me state that we do hear you. We understand some of you aren’t having fun and preferred the Lich King paradigm, or at least something closer to the Lich King paradigm. We greatly appreciate the feedback and it always makes us sad when players aren’t having fun. We're not ignoring you. We get it. We may not always agree on every point, but we understand where you’re coming from, and we want to try to help you understand where we're coming from."


"The bottom line is that we want Heroics and raids to be challenging, and that is particularly true now while the content is new and characters are still collecting gear. They’re only going to get easier from here on out. We want players to approach an encounter, especially a Heroic encounter, as a puzzle to be solved. We want groups to communicate and strategize. And by extension, we want you to celebrate when you win instead of it being a foregone conclusion."

hoops 1,2, and 3.....

"We didn't like that the Heroic dungeons in Lich King and early Naxxramas had become zerg-fests. It made the rewards feel like they weren't earned. It made all rewards except the best-in-slot items feel transitory -- why enchant or gem an item when you don’t need the performance boost and you’ll quickly replace it anyway? Furthermore, it set the expectation that everyone would eventually earn all best-in-slot items rather than those being rare and treasured goals. It made class abilities feel less useful and interesting. Who needs that crowd-control or survivability talent when nothing is hurting you? Who needs a mana-conservation talent if you’re never going to run out of mana? Who needs a crit talent if your heals often overheal anyway?"


Above is where the arrogance kicks in. WOW hit record numbers with the Wrath style, and whether everyone likes it or not, it is because so many found that style fun. He started by saying "we hear you", and has moved on to "we don't care"....


Here come the rest of the hoops....


"Strategy and Communication"

"DPS specs often get blamed the most for not knowing what is going on. It should be your business to understand the mechanics of the fights. You’re a member of a team, not a follower who can always rely on someone else to tell them what to do."

He is pretty much telling everyone that researching the fights is a must. While most of the people that post here already do this, many many more refuse to "work" to have "fun". Again, it is arrogant to expect your players to have to do research, and work, in order to enjoy your product.

"Improve"

That title in and of itself is telling players that they aren't "good enough" to HAVE FUN!!!!

"World of Warcraft supports a lot of solo play. However, we want dungeons to be a group experience. In fact, we think the game is more fun overall when you play with friends, which is why we put so much effort into encouraging players to join guilds for Cataclysm."

Play the way WE think you should (another hoop)....and it will be fun.


Then he goes on to explain that normals should have been another "hoop to jump through" (his own words)...besides just ilevel, in order to queue for heroics.


Again, even though I agree with much that he says, I still find the delivery very arrogant, and the entire post reads to me as such:

Players must jump through certain hoops, before the developers expect them to be able to have fun.
It reads as , "We hear you, we know you aren't having fun, but it is because you are doing it wrong..."

We all know GC has been pissed about healers forever...so he got his way, and healing changed.

Healers are also the ones quitting, or playing alts. The #1 reason? Because it isn't fun.


St0rmie, you may not see this post as arrogance...I might agree with most of it, but put yourself in the shoes of its intended audience, and then ask yourself if they find it to be so....














 

-----signature-----
Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
Link to this post
kyrv 
Title: Lord Logicus
Posts: 14,420
Registered: Jan 31, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 14,357
User ID: 639,081
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
The_Korrigan posted:
kyrv posted:
Korrigan and others though are right about heroics, but the problem is, heroics are practically required if you want to do the end game stuff and get geared.
Those who whine about heroics don't do "end game stuff". If they think not standing in fire in the heroics is too hard, do you even imagine how loud they will whine about the first raid boss they have to fight? Those guys wouldn't even pass the first trash in Bastion of Twilight.



Well I'm probably being too general and too assuming, I thought a lot of people used the heroics to gear up, if not for raids, or pvp, then just to gear up, because well the game tells you that's how you advance.

From what I can tell, the game was telling me that for PvE I should be doing heroics to get gear. Not, well there's this heroic thing, good chance it's above you though.

I might be assuming too much. But they are changing things, as many here predicted.

A lot is on the players, for sure - not realizing every expansion they are noob again, and not willing to wait two months if they decide they don't like heroics now (players and Blizz told them it would get easier). And of course these are the same a**hats that wouldn't let you group with them in wotlk unless you were woefully overgeared, so if you leveled guildless behind the gear curve, oh well.

 

-----signature-----
CO, LOTRO, RoM, PWI, CoH
Dragon Age
Link to this post
Ashmaele 
Title: Pastor of Muppets
Posts: 19,662
Registered: Jan 15, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 15,903
User ID: 612,352
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
GutterSludge posted:
why enchant or gem an item when you don’t need the performance boost and you’ll quickly replace it anyway?




...which is why player crafting is such a colossal waste of time and gold.

GutterSludge posted:
"World of Warcraft supports a lot of solo play. However, we want dungeons to be a group experience. In fact, we think the game is more fun overall when you play with friends, which is why we put so much effort into encouraging players to join guilds for Cataclysm."

Play the way WE think you should (another hoop)....and it will be fun.




Exactly. How many RL friends do you have who want nothing to do with the commitment that comes with joining a raiding guild? I've lost two RL friends (I know, ratsass) to other games precisely because they have no interest in joining a guild.

 

-----signature-----
I had a dream. It was an incredible dream. When I awoke, I had a huge mess to clean up.
hugs
Link to this post
LadyGodiva. 
Posts: 3,301
Registered: Nov 8, '08
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 3,300
User ID: 1,336,124
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
I find it funny that they're still making posts to address the discontent from the community. Apparently people still aren't doing it their way and liking it.

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
linssiy 
Posts: 24
Registered: Jan 24, '11
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 12
User ID: 1,412,478
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
[Mod Edit - Cross Forum Spam]

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
Ugh_Lancelot 
Title: Ooo...bouncy!
Posts: 5,492
Registered: Jun 17, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 5,446
User ID: 689,383
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
croaks35 posted:
Zero_Washu posted:
CC is fine if you control the group composition which mostly puts LFD off limits if you want a smooth run

Yup exactly I am used to CC from old Vanilla WoW problem is that lfd tool needs to be worked on if they wanna plan on using it to that degree.Nothing sucks worse as a healer to jump in that queue and see the team fill up with a tank druid,2 dps warriors and a dk.These ppl have sat in queue for 45 mins not fair to dump them and have them wait again and it sure as hell isn't fun to try to heal that mess.

You guys have hit on one of the biggest problems with the expansion. Namely, that Cataclysm has a critical need for specific types of CC in certain instance mechanics if your group wants to be able to make it past a certain point. If you don't have aforementioned CC/interrupts, it is either so tedious as to be painful or you need to drastically outgear the content, or get really, really lucky. All melee DPS groups are a prime example.

WotLK taught us to bring the player not the class. Cataclysm forces you to bring the holy trinity + CC again.

 

-----signature-----
WoW and DAoC - Too many alts to count
Charter Member - Altaholics Anonymous
Link to this post
Auenwing 
Title: straightface
Posts: 8,837
Registered: Dec 27, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 8,717
User ID: 752,779
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
croaks35 posted:
Zero_Washu posted:
CC is fine if you control the group composition which mostly puts LFD off limits if you want a smooth run

Yup exactly I am used to CC from old Vanilla WoW problem is that lfd tool needs to be worked on if they wanna plan on using it to that degree.Nothing sucks worse as a healer to jump in that queue and see the team fill up with a tank druid,2 dps warriors and a dk.These ppl have sat in queue for 45 mins not fair to dump them and have them wait again and it sure as hell isn't fun to try to heal that mess.

You guys have hit on one of the biggest problems with the expansion. Namely, that Cataclysm has a critical need for specific types of CC in certain instance mechanics if your group wants to be able to make it past a certain point. If you don't have aforementioned CC/interrupts, it is either so tedious as to be painful or you need to drastically outgear the content, or get really, really lucky. All melee DPS groups are a prime example.

WotLK taught us to bring the player not the class. Cataclysm forces you to bring the holy trinity + CC again.



I'm going to say this, and I hope people understand I don't think it's actually happened...


If you were a clueless middle manager at Blizzard responsible for increasing / retaining customers and someone from accounting handed you a chart with attrition numbers since a year or two from launch....

...you might reach the conclusion that Vanilla offered what the customer wanted.

And offered the idea to "turn back the clock" in a design meeting, complete with Kaplan's approach of "herding" the customers into the correct gameplay even if you have to shame them.




Please understand, I don't have a problem with the new heroics and use of CC. We have multiple CC classes in our guild from Vanilla, and we've been anticipating that Blizz would create a situation where we would need a specific type of CC based on instance. Just because TBC emphasized the need even more. We roll as a guild group. We're not the ones being negatively affected by the "new/old" changes, except that we will have to ALSO choose which of our characters get "advancement".

I still have memories of sitting in Ironforge or Stormwind, or Orig listening to players desperately trying to get or even form a group to go do content.

The dungeon finder was supposed to address this.

 

-----signature-----
There are those who play tank classes, and those that tank.
The weapon is only as good as the person wielding it.
Free advice is often worth what you pay for it: nothing.
Link to this post
Auenwing 
Title: straightface
Posts: 8,837
Registered: Dec 27, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 8,717
User ID: 752,779
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
btw, I think it's fantastic that Blizzard put in guild achievements. I think it's wonderful that the emphasis is on things that can benefit a guild by insisting that a certain number of people from the guild be present for encounters/raids/instances.

However, I have to wonder at their design / management group that may or may not have the discipline to sit down and look at the various customer factions and cross-check to understand the trade-offs and impacts that will occur when they decide to implement a new idea.


Who knows, maybe they do. And this all gets back to an attitude of, our customers will stick with us and we will take care of that (subset) in the next patch/expansion as they claim they do.

Or maybe, it's just that they don't have a marketing department that has a forecast by customer segment, and the authority to zero the financial forecast (e.g. monthly subscription fees) for groups ill-served by the game's proposed direction. This makes design decisions meaningful to the numbers guys on top (e.g. look idiots, if we do this, we are going to lose money HERE, here and HERE.)


But, like the man said, all you have to do is wait. We will tone them down. You'll hang around won't you?

 

-----signature-----
There are those who play tank classes, and those that tank.
The weapon is only as good as the person wielding it.
Free advice is often worth what you pay for it: nothing.
Link to this post
The_Korrigan 
Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 21,660
Registered: Jul 17, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,292
User ID: 255,861
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
WotLK taught us to bring the player not the class. Cataclysm forces you to bring the holy trinity + CC again.
Wrong. Cataclysm tells you to bring the player more than ever, and by that I mean the good player. Scrubs are of course not favored when the content becomes a bit (really just a little bit) harder.

 

-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
Link to this post
Arcilite_I 
Title: VN's Most Wanted
Posts: 34,414
Registered: Jan 27, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 33,674
User ID: 633,598
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
The_Korrigan posted:
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
WotLK taught us to bring the player not the class. Cataclysm forces you to bring the holy trinity + CC again.
Wrong. Cataclysm tells you to bring the player more than ever, and by that I mean the good player. Scrubs are of course not favored when the content becomes a bit (really just a little bit) harder.


infantile egomaniac is you

 

-----signature-----


PvPing since 1977
Link to this post
Zero_Washu 
Posts: 13,401
Registered: Sep 28, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 13,151
User ID: 419,410
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
The_Korrigan posted:
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
WotLK taught us to bring the player not the class. Cataclysm forces you to bring the holy trinity + CC again.
Wrong. Cataclysm tells you to bring the player more than ever, and by that I mean the good player. Scrubs are of course not favored when the content becomes a bit (really just a little bit) harder.


LOL, your are so completely wrong it is not funny. There are some classes with no effective CC, guess we can leave them at the door eh?


Blizzard faced a problem, they like PvP, PvP in WOW sucked because it was a burst fest so you were usually quite dead very fast. People bitched and moaned. Because they have Monty Hall'd the loot so badly they only had one route, crank the hit points to stupid levels. This gave them a new problem, even some of the weaker players are better than the content. Hence the first big change is, nerf healers to 25% efficiency. Second is, lots and I mean LOTS of damage that players cannot prevent. Interrupt a caster mob and it starts right back where it left off (Trash appears to follow no rules). Throw in lots of mobs who do 360 damage you cannot interrupt or mitigate, oh and bosses with effect hit boxes so big you practically need to be outside the instance to make sure it don't hit you.

They screwed over PvE completely all in an effort to keep PvP from being its burst gank fest. they then cover this all up with the idea "healers were bored and they all wanted a challenge". Sorry, doesn't wash. Hell Shaman losing their poison/disease totems was a direct result of PvP issues. The whole damn expansion is trying to correct PvP so their next Arenafest doesn't end up being who can mash buttons first.

 

-----signature-----
.
.
. For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven
. Cows go moo, Dogs go woof and MMO players go ''PVP is imbalanced''
. "I’m as horny as the hat rack at a Viking bar.", Ann Coulter
Link to this post
nemesis1 
Posts: ????
Registered: ????
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 0
User ID: 0
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
One thing people seem to forget: Players whined & complained about how easy the game was, how they hardly used any of their class abilities & facerolled content, and how they wanted more challenging 5 man content.
Blizzard listened.

<insert current QQ>

 

-----signature-----
Link to this post
CowboyPhil 
Posts: ????
Registered: ????
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 0
User ID: 0
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
To all of you that are pissed that Bizzard is not listening to you. There is 1 very simple thing you can do. STOP PAYING! When you stop paying and enrollment goes down they will start listening. . . or they won't. If WoW was not the best game in the market and even 20% of the audience went somewhere else another company would rise to meet the call. I don't mean to sound like a rager but seriously if you are that pissed off stand up and DO something, and the best thing you can DO is not to pay to play. When the money starts dropping they will start listening or they will fail.

Personally I think the dungeons are a bit too hard, not oddly so but maybe some tweaks here and there. I am more angry about lower level encounters, like Shadowfang Keep and Deadmines. I have been in there with good to bad groups and they all fail over and over. So let's face it they screwed up.

 

-----signature-----
Link to this post
croaks35 
Posts: 127
Registered: Jul 20, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 127
User ID: 1,364,192
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
nemesis1 posted:
One thing people seem to forget: Players whined & complained about how easy the game was, how they hardly used any of their class abilities & facerolled content, and how they wanted more challenging 5 man content.
Blizzard listened.

<insert current QQ>



As a healer I am not using more skills than I did when facerolling shield,Chakra,heal

Oh and lightwell I will drop during boss fights renew here and there pretty much buisness as usual

 

-----signature-----
(none)
Link to this post
Malachi256 
Posts: 2,454
Registered: Nov 12, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 2,433
User ID: 737,559
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
CowboyPhil posted:
To all of you that are pissed that Bizzard is not listening to you. There is 1 very simple thing you can do. STOP PAYING! When you stop paying and enrollment goes down they will start listening. . . or they won't. If WoW was not the best game in the market and even 20% of the audience went somewhere else another company would rise to meet the call. I don't mean to sound like a rager but seriously if you are that pissed off stand up and DO something, and the best thing you can DO is not to pay to play. When the money starts dropping they will start listening or they will fail.



Pretty much this. If more people leave because the heroics are too hard, than people who left during WotLK because they were bored to death, they'll probably go back to the faceroll heroics.

 

-----signature-----
Explorer / Soloer+Small groups / Some PvP
MMOin' since UO beta, still waiting for UO 2.0 done right
Link to this post
--Syrus-- 
Posts: 7,711
Registered: Dec 2, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 7,639
User ID: 863,847
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
"Don't like it stop playing." Is a dumb response.

Now I have already unsubbed, only because I found I wasn't logging in any more, not because of any one design flaw, I was just doing other things instead. There are a few other games I am playing and what not.

However, if I were still playing and I had a problem with one part of a very large and complex game. I'm not going to quit playing because of it. When I did play I found enjoyment in many aspects of the game, just one going wrong wouldn't be enough to get me to stop playing altogether. That doesn't mean I can't ask for improvement in that one area.

Second if you think Blizzard is going to notice the drop in subs from a few rage quitters that quit over the heroic content alone in a pool of 12 million, you grossly over estimate your importance.

So the "Don't like it, quit." Response, is not only unhelpful because it doesn't offer a solution to the problem, it is punishing the user more then the developer assuming said user likes other aspects of the game.

I encourage players to keep playing and offering their feed back, as long as they are still enjoying the game. As you can see from the response, Blizzard does listen to the whiners, not the quitters.

 

-----signature-----
Common Sense is a myth..
Its Hub. 10 week ban for anybody who disagrees. -Mithan-
Link to this post
steveC91 
Posts: 480
Registered: Mar 28, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 477
User ID: 784,400
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
They will notice the drop in subs and when you quit they ask for reasons
By all means visit the forums while your account is still active and have your say.

 

-----signature-----
In the heat and the rain,
With whips and chains,
To see him fly.
So many die.
Link to this post
The_Korrigan 
Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 21,660
Registered: Jul 17, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,292
User ID: 255,861
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Zero_Washu posted:
LOL, your are so completely wrong it is not funny. There are some classes with no effective CC, guess we can leave them at the door eh?
Use your imagination. Priest can MC a mob at the start and let it die - that's one less mob. Warlock pets can tank one mob. Of course, hunter pets can too, but those have traps. Have one of the DPS switch to tank spec and offtank one of the annoying mobs away from the grp - yes, they can do that even without tank gear now, since tank specs give you crit immunity. He can even "peel" the mobs one by one off the main tank, and still do good damage in the process. Etc...

You even can do any of the heroics without any CC.
You just need to gear up more before attempting it, of course. It's a trade off.

I have not a single time been stopped from completing an heroic because of the lack of CC. Even less now, of course, but even back then when our gear was crap quest blues.

 

-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
Link to this post
The_Korrigan 
Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 21,660
Registered: Jul 17, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,292
User ID: 255,861
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
nemesis1 posted:
One thing people seem to forget: Players whined & complained about how easy the game was, how they hardly used any of their class abilities & facerolled content, and how they wanted more challenging 5 man content.
Blizzard listened.

<insert current QQ>
So true - a specific type of MMO player is never happy anyway. The best for the developer is to simply ignore those.

 

-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
Link to this post
Voqar 
Posts: 8,454
Registered: Mar 12, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 8,255
User ID: 73,152
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
Blisteringballs posted:
Yea it's more challenging and stuff, forget the fact that the experience is boring and tedious.

Lord in Heaven GC is the worst developer possible to be in charge of WoW. It's like he wants his company to lose customers, and has zero memory. He will be fired, and I can't wait.


GC has been having his way for a while - not sure why people are suddenly now finally seeing it as a problem.

The dungeons are challenging - and that I think is awesome. It is unfortunate that WoW has catered to and rewarded players who suck for doing nothing for so long, and now those players suck at MMO basics and can't get thru moderately challenging content.

While I love a challenge, I don't really want to spend 3-4 hours doing a 5-man (which was how it was in the beginning, now that the content is learned and gear has been obtained even the worst of them only take 1-1.5). Most pugs are going to last an eternity unless you get super lucky.

What IS dumb, IMO, is reversal. Bliz made Northrend totally faceroll ez-mode. Bliz made raiding accessible to all in Northrend. Now content is anything but faceroll (some still do it or try and it's ugly). Now raids are anything but casual-accessible and only hardcores will get bosses down.

My biggest beef with cata is too little content. Every toon you level does the exact same quests/rep/everything paths. It's ungodly boring. By the end of northrend we had a large variety of dungeons from easy to marginally challenging (icc 5-mans). There is no variety in cata - it's all on the tougher side (if you're a moron, but most wow players are morons). There are no entry level raids in cata - everything is beefy. What is called the "naxx of cata" surely is not, there's no such thing.

Point is, when it came to cata, they knew what worked and what kind of spread they needed to cater to everyone, from patching it in to WOTLK. There's no reason why they couldn't have released cata with a similar spread. The rate that bliz adds content over time is horribly slow. I would not be surprised if they lose players to boredom (the more hardcore getting stuff done and developing alts is ungodgly repetitive and boring) or frustration (80% of wow players are too stupid to play anything but coloring book mode).

 

-----signature-----
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that
- George Carlin
Link to this post
-Myk- 
Title: Not a War Criminal
Posts: 14,900
Registered: Nov 15, '04
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 13,669
User ID: 991,592
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
GC is a douchebag

 

-----signature-----
flag flag flag flag flag
How can they call it common sense when it isn't very common
We have spent the last 40 years in our country celebrating diversity at the expense of unity :Sen. L. Alexa
A SWTOR guild: http://strife.shivtr.com/
Link to this post
Zero_Washu 
Posts: 13,401
Registered: Sep 28, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 13,151
User ID: 419,410
Subject: RE: Ghostcrawler's Dungeons Are Hard
I am all for raiding to be hard and heroic level raids to be silly hard.

However what I am not up for is nerfing a class type so hard that so many of those players just up and quit. We hit a new low the other night at prime time, 19. From a guild that used to see 40+ we never have seen as low as 19 at prime time. I am just waiting my sub to run out, RIFT hopefully will be a sufficient diversion.

I hope they enjoy their new Arena season, they are paying a high price to support an aspect of the game so few play.

 

-----signature-----
.
.
. For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven
. Cows go moo, Dogs go woof and MMO players go ''PVP is imbalanced''
. "I’m as horny as the hat rack at a Viking bar.", Ann Coulter
Link to this post

Valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional Powered by PHP