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Author Topic: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
-Spacelord- 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Nice post from Ghostcrawler.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/829237-Wow-Dungeons-are-Hard!


We've seen and heard a lot of discussion about the challenge presented by the Cataclysm Heroic dungeons, and to a lesser extent the raids. I'm not sure this is the kind of issue where we're going to be able to change anyone’s mind on the subject, but I can try to provide more insight into our point of view as well as offer some suggestions for success.

First, let me state that we do hear you. We understand some of you aren’t having fun and preferred the Lich King paradigm, or at least something closer to the Lich King paradigm. We greatly appreciate the feedback and it always makes us sad when players aren’t having fun. We're not ignoring you. We get it. We may not always agree on every point, but we understand where you’re coming from, and we want to try to help you understand where we're coming from.

The bottom line is that we want Heroics and raids to be challenging, and that is particularly true now while the content is new and characters are still collecting gear. They’re only going to get easier from here on out. We want players to approach an encounter, especially a Heroic encounter, as a puzzle to be solved. We want groups to communicate and strategize. And by extension, we want you to celebrate when you win instead of it being a foregone conclusion.

On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they’re doing. We don’t want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.

Ultimately, we don’t want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.

We didn't like that the Heroic dungeons in Lich King and early Naxxramas had become zerg-fests. It made the rewards feel like they weren't earned. It made all rewards except the best-in-slot items feel transitory -- why enchant or gem an item when you don’t need the performance boost and you’ll quickly replace it anyway? Furthermore, it set the expectation that everyone would eventually earn all best-in-slot items rather than those being rare and treasured goals. It made class abilities feel less useful and interesting. Who needs that crowd-control or survivability talent when nothing is hurting you? Who needs a mana-conservation talent if you’re never going to run out of mana? Who needs a crit talent if your heals often overheal anyway?

Finally, the encounters, even the bosses, ended up having a sameness to them because you could ignore their mechanics. It didn't matter -- in fact, you didn't even notice -- if the dragon breathes or silences or drops a void zone. The fights all felt the same.

In Cataclysm, the Heroic dungeons and raids are intended to be challenging -- and they are, at least until you overgear them.



So what can you do if you find the Heroics too challenging? Here are a few tips and alternatives.

Strategy and Communication
Tanks, you can’t pull and AE every group in a Heroic (again, until you overgear the content). It’s a good idea to crowd control at least one target -- and sometimes two. As long as you have someone with a long-duration and/or renewable crowd control and someone else with a short crowd control such as a stun or even a snare, you should be fine. We don’t have anything like Heroic Shattered Halls, and you don’t need 3 mages for CC. Caster mobs, which are weak but do a lot of damage, are good choices for crowd control. So are mobs that buff other mobs or debuff your group. Don’t waste the CC on non-elite mobs or others that will die quickly. The responsibility for marking and setting the pace often falls upon the tank, but sometimes other experienced players are happy to take the mantle. If you are setting the pace, you need to keep an eye on healer mana. Healers will generally have enough mana to keep you alive in any given fight, but you need to be careful not to chain pull repeatedly if their mana is low. Tanks tend to have good situational awareness and are experienced at reducing incoming damage. Where I have personally seen them get into trouble is when they slip into overconfident “I got this” mode and try to tank too many things at once.

DPS specs often get blamed the most for not knowing what is going on. It should be your business to understand the mechanics of the fights. You’re a member of a team, not a follower who can always rely on someone else to tell them what to do. Which are the spells that need to be interrupted? Which are the void zones that you absolutely must get out of? Which are the adds that must be burned down (and conversely, when should you ignore the adds and focus on the boss instead)? If you aren’t sure, then ask. Almost every group would rather take the few seconds to explain a fight than to wipe because you failed to dodge Glubtok's wall of fire or tried to AE Vanessa’s spiders or didn't understand what "Downwind of Altairus" meant.

Healers seem like they largely understand that Heroics are challenging, and sometimes get penalized when the rest of the group doesn’t understand that. If you feel like you can’t cast anything but your efficient heal or you’ll run out of mana, then something is going wrong with the fight. Likewise, if you feel like you must spam your inefficient heals to the exclusion of all else, then your group is ignoring key mechanics or is just undergeared. Boss fights in 5-player dungeons generally shouldn’t last more than two minutes or so (the last few Deadmines bosses can be longer). If you’re running out of mana because the fights are going too long, that is a problem with the DPS or tank in your group. Gear also makes a huge difference for healers, which leads to my next point.

For everyone, regardless of role, I suggest running the dungeons on normal mode until you feel more comfortable with the pulls. Those runs can be quick, the penalty for mistakes isn’t as high, and you can often still earn a little reputation, cloth, or enchanting materials. As a bonus, you’ll probably make a group really happy if you’re geared for Heroics but helping them out in a normal dungeon.


Improve
If you just can’t make progress and you are literally wiping on trash pulls over and over, it may be time to analyze your gear. The Dungeon Finder's Heroic item level requirement should be considered a minimum -- and remember, it doesn’t look at enchants or gems or even if the gear is appropriate for you. We are assuming an entry-level Heroic player has a lot of item level 333 gear from Twilight Highlands, normal dungeons, or any of the reputation vendors. These 333s are probably mixed in with a few 318 quest greens, but offset by a few 346 items. If you finished the Hyjal quests, you are probably Revered with Guardians of Hyjal and have access to their 346 items. Questing might only earn you Honored with some of the other reputations, but that is easily rectified with daily quests or dungeon tabards (and don’t forget the Tol Barad reps). There are some nice crafted items. No, the weapons aren’t purple, but when you look at their stats, they are quite competitive.

The item level requirement is intended only to keep out players who have no idea what is appropriate content for them. We know you can game it by getting PvP gear or hiding off-spec gear in your bags. Congrats on being sneaky! If you’re sophisticated enough to try and game the item-level requirements, you should be sophisticated enough to know if you can actually handle the content.

Don't be stingy and decide you aren’t going to mess with gemming, enchanting, or reforging until you have epic gear. Note that you don’t have to always apply the most expensive enchants or gems. Gear matters a lot. It increases DPS, survivability, and mana sustainability. Healers who get, say, 1750-1800 Spirit notice that they can go a lot longer without gassing out. Go ahead and get enchants or gems or reforge to get a lot of Spirit. Some DPS specs who don’t reforge hit at those gear levels would struggle a lot as well. The new Cataclysm flasks are fairly expensive, but the Lich King ones aren’t, and there are elixirs and food consumables you can use as well. Archaeologists can even unlock small bonuses in the new dungeons.

Furthermore, once 4.1 comes out, you will have access to more powerful gear that will let you then revisit the content you couldn’t do before. Your Justice points will let you purchase epic items at that point, and Heroics that were challenging will become a lot easier. Players who have raid gear currently are already starting to burn through the dungeon content again, which is totally expected. You’ll get there too. In Lich King, the content patches tended to completely invalidate the previous tier of content. We don’t want players to feel like they need to farm Naxxramas when Icecrown Citadel is out, but at the other end of the spectrum, it was unfortunate that we largely killed Ulduar raiding when Trial of the Crusader came out.


LF3M 9600GS PST
I love the Dungeon Finder. I worked on it a lot personally. It is quite successful at finding you a group. It doesn't guarantee a successful group. It's a huge improvement over spamming trade chat trying to find a tank for your three-rogue party. But throwing together up to 5 strangers and asking them to do challenging content that some of the group may have never seen before is always going to be risky.

World of Warcraft supports a lot of solo play. However, we want dungeons to be a group experience. In fact, we think the game is more fun overall when you play with friends, which is why we put so much effort into encouraging players to join guilds for Cataclysm. Running a hard dungeon with friends tends to be a much better experience. Communication feels less awkward, and everyone is generally more supportive of mistakes. You learn the strengths and weaknesses and nuances of players that you run with regularly. There tend to be fewer loot arguments as well. PUGs have their place -- don’t get me wrong. But we don’t want to sacrifice dungeons being fun and challenging for organized groups in order to have everything be conquered by any possible group. Make sense?

I’ve PUGged the Cataclysm content a lot. So have all of the designers. We want to stay in touch with what players are experiencing. Heroic PUGs are definitely harder than going with groups of people you know, but they aren’t impossible. If things start to go wrong, you might want to take a moment to analyze why they are going wrong before you bail. I do weep for those players who join an in-progress Heroic Rajh attempt (with suspicious player skeletons everywhere), immediately pull without any discussion, and then have the tank leave the group following the first wipe. That’s not fun for anyone and not going to lead to success. These aren't the original Scholomance or Arcatraz runs that could take four hours with respawns. Making a couple of concerted attempts on Rajh is probably going to be faster than going into the queue again.


Mistakes?
We've seen a few threads that suggest that we're too proud to admit mistakes. I find that logic strange, because we do it all the time. Example one: we reverted the 10x honor from Tol Barad pretty quickly. It was a mistake. Example two: Heroic Strike is too dominant an attack for warriors. That was a mistake. Example three: the Lich King Heroic dungeons (and Naxxramas) were too easy to zerg, setting up an expansion-long expectation that purple gear would come easy and often. In retrospect, that was a mistake. We don't at all view the Cataclysm dungeon and raid balance as a mistake.

However, I can name at least three things related to dungeon difficulty that we either did wrong or could do better. We're our own worst critic, and we are very hard on our own decisions.

First, item level is a necessary -- but not sufficient -- hoop to jump through when using the Dungeon Finder for Heroics. We should have also made sure players had at least seen the content on normal mode before. Maybe we should have had Burning Crusade-like attunements. Maybe we should have made the item level requirements pretty relaxed if you’re going with a premade group and much stricter if you’re going with a pick-up group. We’d love to implement (and have some long-term plans that include) better ways to detect if you know what you’re doing other than just the gear you’ve accumulated. Overall, we just needed to state more clearly that Heroic dungeons are intended as a destination, not a first step.

Second, there are only a few level-85 normal dungeons. For a level-85 player who isn’t ready for Heroics but wants to run dungeons, these can get old pretty quickly. Perhaps another way to handle it would have been to have introductory Heroics and harder Heroics. We’ve also flirted with having three difficulty levels before, but that does add an extra level of content to develop and complexity to explain.

Third, the game could do a better job of telling a group why they failed so that so much blame doesn’t fall at the feet of the healer. We talk a lot about not standing in fires, but equally important is the number of bosses that spawn in adds that must be gathered up and/or burned down quickly, or in some cases ignored. We’re also asking a lot of DPS or tanks in those situations, but that information isn’t always conveyed well except through trial and error.


In Conclusion
We do understand that some healers are frustrated and giving up. That is sad and unfortunate. But the degree to which it's happening, at least at this point in time, is vastly overstated on the forums. We also know that plenty of players like the changes and find healing more enjoyable now. Both sides need to spend a little less effort trying to drown out the other side claiming that everyone they know -- and by extension, “the majority of players” -- agree with their point. You shouldn’t need to invoke a silent majority if you can make an articulate and salient point.

As always, we're keeping an eye on things. There are a few bosses that seem responsible for more wipes than the others: Commander Springvale, Beauty, Altairus, and Admiral Ripsnarl perhaps. By the time you read this, you might have seen us implement Restoration druid buffs intended to keep them competitive in raids. We also just tend to nerf content over time because the original players hitting that content have moved on, so we want to open it up to a wider audience.

In any case, we want to ensure that everyone is having fun and enjoying their time with the game, and I hope that this post may serve to some as the "tare" button that helps you zero in on the intended dungeon difficulty scale. For others, just know that we are actively reading feedback. For everyone offering constructive posts and points about their experience, we thank you.


Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer on World of Warcraft. He has four dogs: three epic retrievers and one green terrier suitable for disenchanting.

 

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Rill_of_WE 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
I read

"TLDR: Heroics are fine L2P"

 

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Arcilite_I 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Yea he could have just typed "stfu, we don't care, it's our vision" and that would have sufficed.

 

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The_Korrigan 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
"Heroics are fine - learn to play" seems to be pretty nice answer to the actual situation to those who can't take some challenge where challenge is supposed to be - mind you, it's called "HEROIC" for a reason.
I may not always agree with Ghostcrawler, but here he is spot on.

 

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Rill_of_WE 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Bosses that RNG one shot you aren't a challenge. It's annoying and stupid. Some of those one-shot abilities are too RNG based and need tweaking IMO. I hope they're watching that.

Edit: Also 2.5 hours stinks. That's a raid time slot not a heroic dungeon. I certainly don't want the 15-30 min dungeons like WotLK but somewhere around an hour would be more reasonable.

 

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Auenwing 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
My first reaction was also "tl:dr LP2"

Went back through it again and can at least appreciate that Blizz (via GC) has at least issued a statement about intent.


I personally don't care whether anything he said causes foaming-at-the-mouth fanbois to think they've been validated. (Those posters will always feel that, regardless of data, and are therefore easily dismissed as not providing valued input.)

Whether I personally agree with some of the things GC has as stated values/perceptions also doesn't matter. Or whether I believe that any Blizz employee has an ability to be truly unbiased about the customer experience.

They've stated their intent, values and perceptions.

Now we know.

Adjust or not accordingly.


PS: Spacelord: thank you for the post. Yes, it was very informative.

 

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-Spacelord- 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
I think it is an excellent post from Blizzard, one of the best.

 

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_Taebo_ 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
I guess they think the previous expansion was "lol faceroll" and now it's L2P. Love, Blizzard.

 

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Auenwing 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
And just in case anybody missed it:

As always, we're keeping an eye on things. There are a few bosses that seem responsible for more wipes than the others: Commander Springvale, Beauty, Altairus, and Admiral Ripsnarl perhaps. By the time you read this, you might have seen us implement Restoration druid buffs intended to keep them competitive in raids. We also just tend to nerf content over time because the original players hitting that content have moved on, so we want to open it up to a wider audience.


 

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Spookysheep 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
GC is as colossal a liar and "spinner" as he ever has been.

Only a moron would call the current design "challenging". Tedious, roadblocking, poorly designed... those are accurate descriptions.


By his own admission the only "challenge" is ilevel. That makes him an idiot, and anyone else who uses the word "challenging", just as much of an idiot.




Now lets be real. Anyone who is not a complete retard knows that the current heroics are designed for no other reason than to dramatically slow progress because there is almost NO ACTUAL CONTENT in this xpac.

Say what you want to the contrary, but everyone with a brain cell will continue to dismiss GC (and anyone who agrees with him) as a complete idiot (and sadly, GC and those like him think most people are stupid enough to believe his spin).


As the subscriptions roll away, blizzard will "change their philosophy" as they always do. They always have, always will. That's what keeps the numbers coming back. Its business.

 

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_Kewk_ 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Auenwing posted:
And just in case anybody missed it:

As always, we're keeping an eye on things. There are a few bosses that seem responsible for more wipes than the others: Commander Springvale, Beauty, Altairus, and Admiral Ripsnarl perhaps. By the time you read this, you might have seen us implement Restoration druid buffs intended to keep them competitive in raids. We also just tend to nerf content over time because the original players hitting that content have moved on, so we want to open it up to a wider audience.




I can see pugs wiping on Ripsnarl... but lol@ the others?

 

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goldielocks2009 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Great post.. thanks for sharing!

 

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PallyDog 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Altairus

Ummm...he's cake? Totally? Why's he even mentioned?


Anyways...it was a valid post, thanks for posting it. I do agree there ocuel be more challenge in the game. I'm not excited about how hard some of the heroic encoutners are atm however. I am one of those funny people who likes ot approach a problema nd figure it out, rather than just Tank n Spank it. I do liek getting a group to work wellt ogether and the sense of accomplishment you get from it. How many people remember Vanilla? I mean seriously? I don't want it to be THAT hard again but it's nice bringing back a small amount of that.

Oh, and agree with Rill. I used to complain at spending 5+ hours in MC. Over two hours in a heroic is too much.

 

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-Spacelord- 
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I think most forgot that WotLK heroic were ran overgeared for like a year and got too used to it. Even Blizzard seem to have forgotten it. They say Naxx was easy. Uh no it was not. We entered Naxx with blues and a few epics + plenty of wipes.

 

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Auenwing 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
It's been no secret since Vanilla that travel time and gear checks have been "speedbumps".

They've put a token amount of travel time back in (must "discover" the entrance).

The rest is obvious.

 

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Trigeminal 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
I read.
"I'm Ghostcrawler. I have no clue what is going on but what I say is gospel the moment it leaves my lips."

 

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Ayadread 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
If any boss is one shotting your tank, your tank shouldn't be tanking the instance.

 

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Festus_Stundagin 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Blizzard needs to decide what they want. Theya re trying to please two populations and that's not a possibility. you either design the game for a specific demographic or you don't. Pushing TBc and then wotlk as faceroll expansions and conditioning the playerbase to expect a certain outcome is their own damned fault. Going through with the cataclysm expansion and completely redoing their game design was about as stupid as you can get when marketing. I preferred the gameplay of Vanilla WoW, so if Cata is similar to that raid wise, then I might enjoy cata if I had decided to purchase it. Blizzards inability to stick with one path however became overly tiresome and I simply don't pay for their product anymore. This post from ghostcrawler wreaks of cancellation surveys pointing the new gameplay as their issue, very similar when the real ID exodus occurred.

 

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IndridCole 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
I'm not going to comment of the validity of GC's post. It feels to me more of a 'that's why we have guilds' mentality. Join one, learn, play. EOS.

Otherwise..I'm really getting sick of this thread theme. Nothing personal (as in I'm not aiming this at a person specifically) but don't like it(?) leave(!)

How hard is that? It's a game.

On another note: Rill..are the heroics taking 2.5 hours average? Is this from guild experience? Is this an ilevel issue?

 

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TorgasPrim 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
He is right, Cata is not fun. It's a "Follow the Rails" grind-fest. Then when you get to the dungeons, 4 hours and several wipes later I want to pull my hair out.
WoTLK was challenging, Cata is downright disheartening. I reached 85 and I don't even want to roll the new dungeons and gear up.
confused

 

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Liquid741 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
im still playing and will continue...also buying Rift when it comes out and see how it goes. ill make my call on which one to stick with..

the DF is great, but exhausting when you wait 30+ min in the que then only to wipe and get it called because of frustration...why play something like that?

 

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-Spacelord- 
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My only wish is to make it easier to PUG. No idea how but i hate the "get in a good guild" mentality from Blizzard and most VN users as well.

 

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Auenwing 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Our guild is planning to continue playing for the moment.

We are actually encouraged by the phrase "is a destination not a first step". If 5-man heroics end up being "mini raids" for us (until they are nerfed), that's fine. We enjoy challenges, even when they are gimmicks wrapped up that way.

We know, however, this a narrow perspective about our own style of playing and that other players are having concerns, a lot based on Blizz's own actions in setting expectations in the past and on their pendulum swings. And discussions about those are always valid.

"Raid or Die" is now "Guild or Wait" ??


----------

Additional viewpoint of time to run heroics:

Back in TBC, first starting out when we were in the process of gearing up, it was not uncommon for us to take 2 hours to run an instance the first time or two (stopping to think about the pull strategy, getting mana, etc.) After running Kara, and acquiring other gear, and getting past the glass gear wall, yeah, we could run them in an hour or under.)

Getting to LK and finding 15-20 min runs... /shakehead

I suspect it's time for us to reset our guild expectations. Until learning curve, gear and/or nerf which ever happens first. I"m assuming our guild will take over 2 hours as well at the beginning and that it may not necessarily take that long in the end.

 

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Rill_of_WE 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
IndridCole posted:

On another note: Rill..are the heroics taking 2.5 hours average? Is this from guild experience? Is this an ilevel issue?


This weekend was the first time my hubby, guildmates and I decided to step foot into heroics. We're not fools and we're all good players. We've stayed away from heroics this long knowing full well they were going to be hard. So we spent the extra time gearing up, doing research about best rotations/gear/spec. We made sure everything was gemmed and enchanted, if not with the best(costs are insane!) then close enough stuff. We're all a good way above the minimum iLevel though it's still pre-heroic gear. No purchased epics or whatever.

Our first heroic we get is Grim Batol. We've read it's the hardest one but we decide to give it a try anyway and see how it goes. We do fine. Couple wipes for the learning curve on the first boss, no big. We even got the second boss after only one wipe. The third boss stopped us for an hour and a half. We'd do fine up until the dragon. She loooooves doing her flame breath at the same time the elemental comes. So the person kiting would sometimes get caught too far away and unable to dodge the breath AND the elemental. Or various other reasons we'd loose one person or another. So we shrugged it off to a 'not-high enough DPS' and 'sleepiness' issue and called it quits. It's was cool we got that far in the supposedly hardest heroic. Even if the random death syndrome we were experiencing in third boss was frustrating.

The next day we tried another random and got Stonecore. We wiped for 2 hours on the first boss before calling it quits. We did everything fine. But Blizzard's server seems to think people are standing in the boss dust when we're not. We lost one person every time to that. These are NOT stupid people. They move immediately. But either the dust cloud is too big or too small or the boss just doesn't allow for time-lag. I, myself got caught twice. I moved immediately with my Inner Will movement buff on. I was a good 10 yards away from the boss's dust cloud and still got killed. I hope it was just a bug.

We decided to queue up for a diff heroic and ended up with HoO. We cruised along just fine but after an hour (and 2 hours spent in the instance before) we had to call it quits because people needed to go work on honey-do lists and whatnot. We probably could have finished HoO in less than 2 hours, give or take for learning curve, but the whole deal was really disheartening. We tried several other heroics this weekend but all of them went over a couple hours. It would be a fun dungeon through the first couple bosses then we'd smack into one that would just roflstomp stop us for one reason or other. I don't expect to go in and faceroll, but I was hoping for a good, hard, challenging instance THAT WE COULD COMPLETE!

Anyhoo, little rant I suppose. I'm sure it'll get easier with time, gear and learning. I consider my guildmates casual players who are hardcore at heart. They know what they're doing, they just don't have all the time in the world to devote to something with such little rewards. The difficulty needs to match the rewards. That's where it agitates me. ;P

 

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Auenwing 
Title: straightface
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Rill, sounds like an entirely frustrating situation. When you call for toning down, I know you're doing it with an eye on data/experience, particularly since you went through beta.

Your guild description is dead-on with mine. We're also hoping for 1 hour runs eventually.

Looking back at 5-mans starting with Dire Maul, the out-of-order 5-man/10-man gear that was TBC, then the easy-happy-meal badge runs in LK.... swinging that pendulum too hard...

 

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Bremen_Gaheris 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Spookysheep posted:
GC is as colossal a liar and "spinner" as he ever has been.

Only a moron would call the current design "challenging". Tedious, roadblocking, poorly designed... those are accurate descriptions.


By his own admission the only "challenge" is ilevel. That makes him an idiot, and anyone else who uses the word "challenging", just as much of an idiot.




Now lets be real. Anyone who is not a complete retard knows that the current heroics are designed for no other reason than to dramatically slow progress because there is almost NO ACTUAL CONTENT in this xpac.

Say what you want to the contrary, but everyone with a brain cell will continue to dismiss GC (and anyone who agrees with him) as a complete idiot (and sadly, GC and those like him think most people are stupid enough to believe his spin).


As the subscriptions roll away, blizzard will "change their philosophy" as they always do. They always have, always will. That's what keeps the numbers coming back. Its business.



Gonna have to go ahead and agree. Well said Spooky.

And his comments about the official boards (Healer board specifically I bet) just validates all the complaints. Why even acknowledge and belittle the posters claiming problems if they are a non-issue and small minority of complainers?

 

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aon_mixed 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
since we are bitching about content, i'll make the complaint that the word hubby is absolutely demeaning to men who are married.

 

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Unstruck 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Rill_of_WE posted:
just don't have all the time in the world to devote to something with such little rewards. The difficulty needs to match the rewards. That's where it agitates me. ;P


Sums up my opinion about heroics more concisely than I ever could. It's possible to complete, but the rewards aren't worth all the effort. Bingo bango.

Auenwing posted:
swinging that pendulum too hard...


Yep, 180 degrees left to right and left again and back. Not saying I can do a better job, or have the solutions as to what specifically to tweak. Just noticing.

In any event Auen, I started a worgen druid and I'm actually enjoying him a lot. I know said earlier the worgen were meh, but somehow with a druid it just "fits" better. Renewed my subscription and am having fun again. Downloaded the addon "sniff be gone" to take out that sound, though. peace

 

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Auenwing 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Unstruck posted:
Rill_of_WE posted:
just don't have all the time in the world to devote to something with such little rewards. The difficulty needs to match the rewards. That's where it agitates me. ;P


Sums up my opinion about heroics more concisely than I ever could. It's possible to complete, but the rewards aren't worth all the effort. Bingo bango.

Auenwing posted:
swinging that pendulum too hard...


Yep, 180 degrees left to right and left again and back. Not saying I can do a better job, or have the solutions as to what specifically to tweak. Just noticing.

In any event Auen, I started a worgen druid and I'm actually enjoying him a lot. I know said earlier the worgen were meh, but somehow with a druid it just "fits" better. Renewed my subscription and am having fun again. Downloaded the addon "sniff be gone" to take out that sound, though. peace



Glad you found some fun again! happy Yeah, somehow, the worgen druid does "fit" (especially without the annoying "sniff").

 

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Unstruck 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Auenwing posted:
Glad you found some fun again! happy Yeah, somehow, the worgen druid does "fit" (especially without the annoying "sniff").


Most likely because it isn't a night elf male anymore. tongue Boo to that horrible casting animation!

Found this on MMO-Champ. Will let the bot post it in its own thread eventually. grin

--------------------------------------------------

General

* Guild bank vouchers that players unlock as guild rewards now correctly state that they can only be used by Guild Leaders.
* Many rare creatures that went into hiding upon Deathwing's emergence into Azeroth have made a return! In addition to finding new homes in a post-Cataclysm world, they drop new, improved loot, provide a healthy experience bonus, and respawn much more quickly when killed. Happy hunting!


Dungeons & Raids

* Level 85 players can now choose any normal dungeon via the Dungeon Finder. Choosing Random Dungeon will still not add Blackrock Caverns or Throne of the Tides into the rotation.


Blackrock Caverns

* Beauty now spawns with only two pups in Heroic difficulty. Not to worry though, the missing pup has been adopted by a wonderful, if not insane family.


Grim Batol

* Faceless Corruptors now move 10% more slowly.
* Players may still use spell and abilities while afflicted by Forgemaster Throngus's Impaling Slam.
* Valiona's Devouring Flame damage has been reduced by 20%.


Halls of Origination

* The duration of the Flame Wardens' Raging Inferno has been reduced by 80%.
* Anraphet's Nemesis Strike now does 75% of weapon damage, up from 50%. In addition, the damage-over-time effect applied by this ability does 15,000 damage every 2 seconds, up from 9,000.
* Earthrager Ptah's Flame Bolt now deals more damage per second on Heroic difficulty.
* Setesh seeks a portal every 25 seconds, up from 20.


Lost City of the Tol'vir

* Lockmaw no longer tolerates fighting in his treasure room.


Shadowfang Keep

* Baron Ashbury
o Sadly, in his hubris he has forgotten how to Mend Rotten Flesh.

* Lord Walden
o Conjure Poisonous Mixture now deals more initial damage.
o Frost Mixture is now area-of-effect damage.
o Toxic Catalyst now deals less damage over time.


The Stonecore

* Stonecore Earthshapers' Dust Storm does slightly less damage.
* Corborus
o The warning time for Thrashing Charge has been increased by 1 second. In addition, Thrashing Charge now happens 4 times, down from 5.
o The visual for Rock Borers spawning during the submersion phase is now different from the Thrashing Charge visual.

* High Priestess Azil
o She grew! She's now 175% the size of a human, up from 125%.
o Gravity Wells should kill Devout Followers more quickly.
o The cast time of Force Grip is now 1.5 seconds, up from 1.
o The size of the warning visual for Seismic Shard has been increased to more accurately reflect the area it affects.
* Slabhide
o The ground phase lasts longer and has fewer stalactites.
* Ozruk
o There is now a precast visual on the ground to make it clear how far away a player must get to be clear of Shatter.
o The cast time of Shatter has been increased to 3 seconds, up from 2.5.
o Shatter damage is now reduced by armor, but has been increased by 33.3% (repeating, of course) as a result.
* Bug Fixes
o Fixed a bug that made Ozruk's Shatter knockback component 10-yard range while the damage had a 15-yard range. Both are 15 yards now.


Throne of the Tides

* The damage done by Lady Naz'jatar's Shock Blast and Naz'jar Tempest Witch Chain Lightning has been reduced.
* Tainted Sentries Swell damage has been reduced.
* The damage of Blight of Ozumat has been reduced by 25% per stack.


The Vortex Pinnacle

* Creatures
o Desperate Speed cast by Temple Adepts has had its duration reduced significantly.

* Altairus
o The visual effects in this encounter have been adjusted to make the wind direction easier to read.
o Cyclones now knock players straight up, and players hit by a cyclone cannot be hit again for a few seconds.
* Asaad
o Skyfall Stars are now summoned to help him defeat players.
o Static Cling has had its cast time increased to 1.25 seconds, up from 1.
* Grand Vizier Ertan
o His health has been reduced slightly.
o He now knocks away players standing too close to him when he retracts his Cyclone Shield, which now inflicts Nature damage if it touches players.
* Bug Fixes
o Fixed a bug that made Ozruk's Shatter knockback component 10-yard range while the damage had a 15-yard range. Both are 15 yards now.


PvP
Tol Barad

* Players will now be teleported out of the Tol Barad micro dungeons 15 minutes before the beginning of the next battle.


Classes
Death Knight (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

* Necrotic Strike's absorption effect is now reduced by the target's resilience. In addition, its debuff duration has been reduced to 10 seconds, down from 15.
* The spell hit bonus previously given by Virulence (Unholy) has been rolled into the Runic Focus passive effect that all death knights possess.


Blood

* Bone Shield now has 4 charges, up from 3.
* If Death Strike is used while a Blood Shield is already active, the new absorb will stack with the old one instead of replacing it.
* Scarlet Fever now applies via Blood Plague, rather than Blood Boil.


Frost

* Chilblains now also causes Chains of Ice to root the target for 1.5/3 seconds.
* Hungering Cold now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.


Unholy

* Blightcaller (Mastery) has been redesigned and renamed Dreadblade. It increases all Shadow damage by 2.5% per point of mastery.
* Death's Advance (new talent): While both Unholy Runes are depleted, movement-impairing effects cannot reduce the death knight below 75/100% of normal movement speed.
* Sudden Doom is now triggered only from main-hand auto attacks, and is normalized according to weapon speed rather than having a fixed percentage chance.
* Virulence has been redesigned. It now grants 10/20/30% additional disease damage.


Glyphs

* Glyph of Dark Succor (new talent) raise the minimum healing done by Death Strike from 7% to 20% of maximum health, but only while in Unholy or Frost Presence.


Runeforging

* Swordbreaking and Swordshattering now reduce disarm duration by 60%, up from 50%.


Druid (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

* Entangling Roots now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* Hibernate now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* Moonfire mana cost has been reduced from 18% to 9%.
* Nature's Grasp now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* Prowl is no longer broken by enemies using Demoralizing Shout or Demoralizing Roar.
* Skull Bash's lockout time has been reduced to 4 seconds, down from 5.
* Soothe is now instant cast, down from 1.5 seconds.
* Worgen and troll druids now have new art for Swift Flight Form.


Balance

* Sunfire mana cost has been reduced from 18% to 9%.
* Total Eclipse (Mastery) benefit from mastery increased by approximately 33%.


Feral

* Infected Wounds now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.


Restoration

* Empowered Touch now also affects Regrowth. In addition, after Tree of Life is no longer active, this talent will only refresh the most recently cast or refreshed Lifebloom, and will not refresh other copies of Lifebloom.
* Natural Shapeshifter has been reduced to a 3/6-second increase to Tree of Life's duration, down from 5/10.
* Symbiosis (Mastery) benefit from mastery increased by approximately 16%.
* Tree of Life no longer grants immunity to Polymorph. In addition, its duration has been reduced to 25 seconds, down from 30.
* Wild Growth healing has been increased by 30%, and the cooldown has been reduced to 8 seconds, down from 10.


Glyphs

* Glyph of Entangling Roots redesigned. It now reduces the cast time of Entangling Roots by 0.2 seconds, rather than making it instant cast.


Hunter (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

* Cobra shot cast time is now affected by haste.
* Concussive Shot duration has been increased to 6 seconds, up from 4.
* Freezing Trap now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* Master's Call now has a 35-second cooldown, down from 1 minute, and its range has been increased to 40 yards, up from 25. In addition, the visual effect is more obvious.
* Steady Shot cast time is now affected by haste.
* Wing Clip now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.


Marksmanship

* Wild Quiver (Mastery): Chance for this to trigger per mastery has been increased by approximately 17%.


Survival

* Black Arrow damage has been reduced by 25%.
* Explosive Shot damage has been reduced by 25%.
* Hunter vs. Wild has been increased to 5/10/15% Stamina, up from 4/8/12%.
* Serpent Spread can now only affect up to 4 targets per Multi-Shot, down from unlimited.


Glyphs

* Glyph of Concussive Shot redesigned. It now limits the maximum run speed of the target while Concussive Shot is active.


Bug Fixes

* Cobra Shot now properly increases the duration of the Serpent Spread Serpent Sting.


Mage (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

* Arcane Barrage mana cost has been reduced by 8%.
* Arcane Blast mana cost has been reduced by 12%.
* Counterspell lockout duration reduced to 7 seconds, down from 8.
* Fireball mana cost has been reduced by 25%.
* Polymorph now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* Ring of Frost: Radius shrunk to 8 yards, and inner "safe" radius is now 4.7 yards (exactly matching graphic). Dispelling the effect of Ring of Frost will now make the target immune to being refrozen for 3 seconds. If a second Ring of Frost is cast by the same mage while the first is still active (via Cold Snap), the first will now disappear and cease functioning. In addition, Ring of Frost now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* When a mage uses the Invisibility spell, it will now also cause their pet Water Elemental to become invisible.


Arcane

* Slow now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.


Fire

* Firestarter now allows the mage to cast Scorch while moving (regardless of which armor spell is used), and no longer eliminates Molten Armor's critical strike chance reduction.
* Flashburn (Mastery) benefit per mastery has been increased by 12%.
* Living Bomb mana cost has been reduced by 22%.


Frost

* Deep Freeze damage done has been reduced by 20%.
* Fingers of Frost can no longer be dispelled and now also increases Ice Lance damage by 15%.
* Frost Specialization now only grants 2 base points of mastery (instead of 8), reducing all Frost damage to frozen targets by 15% from previous values. However, Frost Specialization now increases base Frostbolt damage by 15%.


Paladin (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

* Forbearance
o The duration has been lowered to 1 minute, down from 2.
o Lay on Hands now causes Forbearance on the target. It used to only cause it when cast on the paladin.
o This was an old design from when Divine Protection caused Forbearance and the paladin didn't want to prevent a tank from using their defensive cooldown.
o Lay on Hands cannot be a critical effect and will not be affected by most abilities which modify healing (such as Beacon of Light).
o Since only Divine Shield, Lay on Hands and Hand of Protection cause Forbearance, the tooltips have been adjusted to better explain the mechanic.
* Holy Wrath no longer counts nearby critters when dividing damage among its targets.
* Seal of Truth: All single target attacks (including Judgement, Hammer of Wrath, Exorcism, and Templar's Verdict) can now trigger this seal.


Holy

* Protector of the Innocent heals for 30% less.


Protection

* Vindication no longer allows Hammer of Justice to interrupt stun-immune targets. With Rebuke baseline, this functionality is no longer necessary.


Retribution

* Act of Sacrifice will no longer cause Cleanse to remove movement impairing effects from vehicles the paladin is riding.


Priest (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

* Mind Control now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* Mind Sear can now be channeled on friendly targets in addition to enemy targets. In addition, Mind Sear's damage has been increased by roughly 15%.
* Prayer of Healing effectiveness has been reduced by 15%.


Discipline

* Divine Aegis: Critical effects from Prayer of Healing now award a bonus amount in addition to the default, always-proc Divine Aegis effect.
* In addition to Strength of Soul's existing effects, when Power Word: Shield is placed on oneself, the priest becomes immune to silence, interrupt, and dispel effects for 2/4 seconds.


Holy

* Chakra
o Binding Heal and Holy Word: Serenity now refresh the duration of Renew on the target, in addition to the other direct heals.
o Binding Heal, Flash Heal, Greater Heal can now trigger Chakra: Serenity.
o Mind Spike can now trigger Chakra: Chastise.
* Circle of Healing effectiveness has been increased by 30%.
* Guardian Spirit: The absorb/heal from this ability can now never exceed 200% of the maximum health of the target.


Shadow

* Shadow Orbs benefit from mastery has been increased by approximately 16%.


Rogue (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

* Blind now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* Crippling Poison now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* Sap now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* Stealth is no longer broken by enemies using Demoralizing Shout or Demoralizing Roar.


Assassination

* Deadly Momentum critical strike bonus now lasts for 15 seconds, up from 10.


Combat

* Main Gauche (Mastery) now provides a chance to deal an attack for 100% of main-hand damage. This attack can trigger Combat Potency.
* Restless Blades now also reduces the cooldown of Redirect.
* Vitality now increases attack power by 25%, up from 20%.


Subtlety

* Executioner (Mastery) has been increased from 2% to 2.5% per point.
* Find Weakness now grants 35/70% armor reduction, up from 25/50%.
* Preparation no longer resets the cooldown of Evasion.
* Sanguinary Vein now gives a rogue a 50/100% chance for their own Bleed effects to not break their Gouge.
* Shadowstep's cooldown has been increased to 24 seconds, up from 20 seconds.
* Sinister Calling now grants 30% Agility, up from 25%, and increases Backstab and Hemorrhage damage by an additional 40%, up from 25%.


Shaman (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

* Chain Heal's effectiveness has been increased by approximately 10%.
* Hex now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* Purge now dispels a single effect instead of two.
* Tremor Totem has been redesigned. The totem is now usable under Fear, Charm, or Sleep effects, and pulses much more rapidly, but lasts 6 seconds and has a 1-minute cooldown.


Elemental Combat

* Earthquake damage has been increased by approximately 10%.


Enhancement

* Flametongue Weapon damage now scales from attack power instead of spell power (for Enhancement shaman only).
* Purge no longer has its mana cost reduced by Mental Quickness.


Restoration

* Cleansing Waters no longer fires its heal effect twice when a shaman removes a Magic and a Curse debuff with a single cast.
* Deep Healing (Mastery) has been increased to 3% per point, up from 2.5%.
* Greater Healing Wave mana cost has been increased by 10%; healing done has been increased by 20%.
* Mana Tide Totem has been redesigned. The totem no longer multiplies the Spirit of those affected by it. It instead gives a flat amount of Spirit equal to 400% of the casting shaman's Spirit, exclusive of short-term Spirit buffs affecting the shaman when the totem is dropped.


Warlock (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

* Curse of Exhaustion now reduces movement speed by 30%, down from 50%. Its range has been increased to 40 yards, up from 30.
* Demon Armor and Fel Armor no longer cost mana and last until canceled.
* Fear now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* Fel Armor now increases the warlock's maximum mana by 10% instead of regenerating health.
* Seduction (Succubus) now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.


Affliction

* Unstable Affliction's silence effect has been reduced to 4 seconds, down from 5.


Demonology

* Demon Soul: Imp redesigned. It now increases the critical strike chance of all non instant cast Destruction spells by 30%, rather than increasing critical strike damage. Duration reduced to 20 seconds.
* Felstorm (Felguard) damage has been reduced by 20%.
* Immolation Aura damage has been reduced by roughly 30%.
* Inferno no longer increases the radius of Hellfire, but instead increases the duration of Immolate by 6 seconds in addition to its existing effect.
* Master Demonologist (Mastery) benefit from mastery increased by approximately 33%.


Destruction

* Burning Embers damage has been reduced by 15%.
* Fiery Apocalypse (Mastery) benefit from mastery increased by approximately 8%.
* Improved Soul Fire now increases Fire and Shadow damage done by 4/8%, rather than 7/15% spell haste. In addition, this talent has been moved to tier-3 Destruction, switching places with Aftermath.


Warrior (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

* Hamstring now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds.
* Inner Rage has been redesigned. It now reduces the cooldown on Heroic Strike and Cleave by 50% (to 1.5 second) for the next 15 seconds. 1-minute cooldown. It still cannot be used during Deadly Calm. This ability was originally designed to help warriors with rage capping, but the Heroic Strike and rage normalization changes seem to have solved that problem on their own. This new design will still allow warriors to burn off excess rage faster, at their discretion.
* Slam cast time is now affected by haste.


Fury

* Bloodthirst damage has been increased by approximately 30%.
* Raging Blow weapon damage percent (at level 80+) has been increased from 110% to 145%.


Protection

* Charge's stun continues to not trigger diminishing returns for Protection warriors who have the Warbringer talent.


Professions

* Find Herbs, Fish, and Minerals are no longer canceled upon entering an Arena or rated Battleground.
* A socket has been added to all crafted epic armor pieces that did not already have one.


Alchemy

* Alchemist's Stones for Agility, Strength, and Intellect have been added.
* The number of herbs required to create flasks has been reduced, while the Volatile Life needed has been increased slightly.
* The drops from Tiny Treasure Chests have been improved slightly.


Archaeology

* Archaeology finds now grant a guaranteed skill point up to 50 skill, and then no longer grant skill gains, as opposed to granting up to 100 skill very slowly.


Engineering

* The Electrified Ether recipe now creates 2 to 3 Electrified Ether instead of 1.
* The Heat-Treated Spinning Lure buff duration has been increased to 20 minutes, up from 5. In addition, the recipe now creates 2 at a time.
* Synapse Springs now increase Agility, Strength, or Intellect (whichever is highest for the character).
* Volatile Air now has an increased chance of dropping from rich mining nodes and Pyrite.


Jewelcrafting

* Vivid Dream Emerald (new gem) provides resilience/spell penetration and can be purchased for 3 Illustrious Tokens.


Leatherworking

* The 500 to 510 skill-up range for Leatherworking has been improved.


Tailoring

* Darkglow Embroidery (Rank 2) now increases Spirit instead of restoring a flat amount of mana.


Items

* Left Eye of Rajh: Chance of triggering increased.
* The PvE warlock 4-piece set bonus (Fel Spark) now increases the damage done by the next 2 Fel Flame spells by 300%, rather than increasing the critical effect chance of one by 100%.
* The PvP hunter 4-piece set bonus has been increased to 10% Focus regeneration, up from 5%.
* The PvP warlock 4-piece set bonus has been redesigned. It now reduces the cooldown of Death Coil by 30 seconds.
* The PvP warrior 4-piece set bonus has been redesigned. It now reduces disarm duration by 60% (does not stack with any Weapon Chains).
* PvP trinkets will now clear disarm and silence effects.
* Right Eye of Rajh: Chance of triggering increased.
* Weapon Chains now reduce disarm duration by 60%, up from 50%.


Quests & Creatures
Tol Barad Peninsula

* Spawn rates at Rustberg Village have been increased.

 

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st0rmie 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Rill_of_WE posted:
Bosses that RNG one shot you aren't a challenge. It's annoying and stupid. Some of those one-shot abilities are too RNG based and need tweaking IMO. I hope they're watching that.

Any particular bosses you have in mind here?

 

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PallyDog 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
TorgasPrim posted:
He is right, Cata is not fun. It's a "Follow the Rails" grind-fest. Then when you get to the dungeons, 4 hours and several wipes later I want to pull my hair out.
WoTLK was challenging, Cata is downright disheartening. I reached 85 and I don't even want to roll the new dungeons and gear up.
confused


Here's the paradox. Getting to 85 was cake!! Getting things done once you're 85 is not so tasty. I wish that they had made it a bit more challenging to hit 85 for the new content.

 

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-MrBean- 
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st0rmie posted:
Rill_of_WE posted:
Bosses that RNG one shot you aren't a challenge. It's annoying and stupid. Some of those one-shot abilities are too RNG based and need tweaking IMO. I hope they're watching that.

Any particular bosses you have in mind here?



Rahj does it with his stupid hopping.

 

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TinMan52 
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Rill_of_WE posted:
I read

"TLDR: Heroics are fine L2P"


I read (all of it) and heard ...

"Go suck it newbs! I hope you all die standing in teh fire."

On a serious note, I trust the opinions of the established WoW podcasters' opinions over 99% of the forum opinions out there. Basically, the valid opinion is that WoW is easy (even heroics) with correctly geared, competent players.

 

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IndridCole 
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TinMan52 posted:
Rill_of_WE posted:
I read

"TLDR: Heroics are fine L2P"


I read (all of it) and heard ...

"Go suck it newbs! I hope you all die standing in teh fire."

On a serious note, I trust the opinions of the established WoW podcasters' opinions over 99% of the forum opinions out there. Basically, the valid opinion is that WoW is easy (even heroics) with correctly geared, competent players.
worried

 

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Arcilite_I 
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* Black Arrow damage has been reduced by 25%.
* Explosive Shot damage has been reduced by 25%.


Man, talk about neutering a spec...odd how this comes only a day or two after we see Survival hunters obliterating dps charts in raids.

 

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Exodus_The_Mage 
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It's funny how GC made such a long post to defend their design principles, and then follow up with every possible nerfs to heroic instance shortly after happy

 

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The_Korrigan 
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Rill_of_WE posted:
We wiped for 2 hours on the first boss before calling it quits. We did everything fine. But Blizzard's server seems to think people are standing in the boss dust when we're not.
laugh
No. If you were killed by the worm when he's underground, you were NOT doing everything fine.
And of course, why am I not surprised that people blame the game instead of their inability to not stand in the fire...

Other groups kill the worm just fine. We killed him many times just fine. I guess someone must indeed doing "everything fine".

But don't worry, nerfs are coming, so every incompetent player can just faceroll his daily valor points, just like in WotLK, and stand on the mailbox with his epics.

 

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Urk_VN 
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Having read GC's comments, along with the posts here, I think that they still don't address a key issue very well. I'm talking about talent specs. True, some are better for soloing, while some are good for groups, but the problem I see is that you're still pretty much forced to spec into a cookie cutter design, and have to get the same exact gear/enchants/buffs as everyone else, and perform the same exact way each time.

So when GC said "if the healer's running out of mana, then your DPS sucks", he was implying that "your class should only be one spec, and you should only be using certain spells/abilities. No ifs, ands, or buts about it, STFU and L2Play". Which makes running dungeons incredibly monotonous for me, because you'll eventually learn that a boss needs X amount of DPS on it in order to beat it. So while I like that a druid, warrior, DK, or paladin can tank for the group, once they're in that role, their job is all the same, make sure the mobs beat on you instead of your group. Which isn't bad in of itself, but you don't have much flexibility to change game plan, you pretty much just "kill this patrol here, pull boss to this area, watch out for his sneaky moves, repeat".

I wish that they developed the bosses in a way that there were multiple ways of beating them, rather than just "wail on them, CC their adds, and then run out of range/LOS if they start doing a super nuke spell/attack". Like maybe have his minions drop a spear that knocks a chunk out of their hp, or they drop a shielding item that helps mitigate their super bonus damage attack. Or maybe a super medkit that restores a portion of mana/health for players. Sure, you could still whittle them down if you wanted, but you could have alternatives to either speed up the fight, or increase survivability so that players stand a chance instead of just "if the healer runs oom, you're screwed period".

Or maybe that boss suffers extra damage from fire or arcane based attacks, and switches what he's weak/strong against mid-fight. So while any attacks/spells hurt him, a fire mage may be able to do extra damage to them at times, and other times just does normal fire damage. This way if you didn't bring the "ideal" group, then you could at least stand a chance of beating it, rather than wiping 10 times in a row even if your geared for it.

 

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Zero_Washu 
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Whatever GC, your entire idea of challenge is nerfing healers efficiency to 25%, having mobs do gratuitous group damage, mobs whose damage is 360, mobs if you interrupt them simply start casting again, mobs you cannot interrupt, etc, etc. In other words, take a player ability to manage a mob and make it not effective.

This is not fun. Even in my large guild we only have two healers who will do heroics, and we peak with over thirty online at a time. All the rest are leveling alts. Hell, even the tanks are doing that, rerolling to alts. The idea is, wait till the next tier of gear comes out, saving your points, then go for heroics. Perhaps by then Blizzard will get a clue that spending over an hour for a pittance in points is not fun.

 

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Sociop 
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Rill_of_WE posted:
[quote=IndridCole]
The next day we tried another random and got Stonecore. We wiped for 2 hours on the first boss before calling it quits. We did everything fine. But Blizzard's server seems to think people are standing in the boss dust when we're not. We lost one person every time to that. These are NOT stupid people. They move immediately. But either the dust cloud is too big or too small or the boss just doesn't allow for time-lag. I, myself got caught twice. I moved immediately with my Inner Will movement buff on. I was a good 10 yards away from the boss's dust cloud and still got killed. I hope it was just a bug.


I have gotten Stonecore 8 times doing random and no one ever gets past the first boss it is a fail and bail Heroic.

 

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Festus_Stundagin 
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The_Korrigan posted:
Rill_of_WE posted:
We wiped for 2 hours on the first boss before calling it quits. We did everything fine. But Blizzard's server seems to think people are standing in the boss dust when we're not.
laugh
No. If you were killed by the worm when he's underground, you were NOT doing everything fine.
And of course, why am I not surprised that people blame the game instead of their inability to not stand in the fire...

Other groups kill the worm just fine. We killed him many times just fine. I guess someone must indeed doing "everything fine".

But don't worry, nerfs are coming, so every incompetent player can just faceroll his daily valor points, just like in WotLK, and stand on the mailbox with his epics.

 

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Arcilite_I 
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The_Korrigan posted:
Rill_of_WE posted:
We wiped for 2 hours on the first boss before calling it quits. We did everything fine. But Blizzard's server seems to think people are standing in the boss dust when we're not.
laugh
No. If you were killed by the worm when he's underground, you were NOT doing everything fine.
And of course, why am I not surprised that people blame the game instead of their inability to not stand in the fire...

Other groups kill the worm just fine. We killed him many times just fine. I guess someone must indeed doing "everything fine".

But don't worry, nerfs are coming, so every incompetent player can just faceroll his daily valor points, just like in WotLK, and stand on the mailbox with his epics.


Can't someone just ban this asshole already.

 

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Festus_Stundagin 
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nononono, dont ban him! It's try hards like him that make forums in general fun! It's even better when being #1 in Warcraft is the high point in his life and he's unwilling to admit it to the rest of us!

 

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siujoey 
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The_Korrigan posted:
Rill_of_WE posted:
We wiped for 2 hours on the first boss before calling it quits. We did everything fine. But Blizzard's server seems to think people are standing in the boss dust when we're not.
laugh
No. If you were killed by the worm when he's underground, you were NOT doing everything fine.
And of course, why am I not surprised that people blame the game instead of their inability to not stand in the fire...

Other groups kill the worm just fine. We killed him many times just fine. I guess someone must indeed doing "everything fine".

But don't worry, nerfs are coming, so every incompetent player can just faceroll his daily valor points, just like in WotLK, and stand on the mailbox with his epics.


Congratulations, your condescension has now moved beyond annoying to somehow being humorous, delusional, and sad all at the same time. Well done, sir.

 

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siujoey 
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"Third, the game could do a better job of telling a group why they failed so that so much blame doesn’t fall at the feet of the healer."

Yes, I think what this game is missing is for the game itself to join in when PUGs begin throwing around blame for the last wipe. That should help. /straight face

Wow.

 

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kyrv 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Auenwing posted:
My first reaction was also "tl:dr LP2"

Went back through it again and can at least appreciate that Blizz (via GC) has at least issued a statement about intent.


I personally don't care whether anything he said causes foaming-at-the-mouth fanbois to think they've been validated. (Those posters will always feel that, regardless of data, and are therefore easily dismissed as not providing valued input.)

Whether I personally agree with some of the things GC has as stated values/perceptions also doesn't matter. Or whether I believe that any Blizz employee has an ability to be truly unbiased about the customer experience.

They've stated their intent, values and perceptions.

Now we know.

Adjust or not accordingly.


PS: Spacelord: thank you for the post. Yes, it was very informative.


I don't like GC but I felt overall this was a very good post. Should settle a lot of arguing, they agreed with much of what players have been saying, and even gave tips/reasons for people that are failing.

They also admitted that healers are quitting. "How many is overstated". Well could you vague that up? Seems to me fewer healers which appears to be caused by arbitrary healer changes is a problem that needs to be addressed, not "well it's overstated".

And as much as "heroics are supposed to be hard" is not a satisfying answer, it's right. Again Blizz created the heroic entitlement, so they share much if not most of the blame for this. It's a pretty major bait and switch. Although, noob agains after the expansion think for some reason new 85's in new dungeons in PUGs should own it - that's not really realistic.

 

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The_Korrigan 
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Arcilite_I posted:
Can't someone just ban this asshole already.
Problem is, if they ban me, to be fair, they'd have to ban you and a few others too for regular trolling and baiting first.
Seems to me that you can't take it when someone serves you your own medicine.
First you guys are like "zomg Korrigan you won't stop me from posting lololol!" and then you want me to be banned... do what I say, not what I do, heh? Pot calling the kettle black?

This becomes more funny every day happy

 

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Rill_of_WE 
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/chuckle

 

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kyrv 
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Zero_Washu posted:
Whatever GC, your entire idea of challenge is nerfing healers efficiency to 25%, having mobs do gratuitous group damage, mobs whose damage is 360, mobs if you interrupt them simply start casting again, mobs you cannot interrupt, etc, etc. In other words, take a player ability to manage a mob and make it not effective.

This is not fun. Even in my large guild we only have two healers who will do heroics, and we peak with over thirty online at a time. All the rest are leveling alts. Hell, even the tanks are doing that, rerolling to alts. The idea is, wait till the next tier of gear comes out, saving your points, then go for heroics. Perhaps by then Blizzard will get a clue that spending over an hour for a pittance in points is not fun.


Well, he did say that. They would only get easier. I think that's the thing, they always get easier, so just do them later. Why kill yourself now in a PUG? GC kind of agrees.

 

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siujoey 
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The_Korrigan posted:
Arcilite_I posted:
Can't someone just ban this asshole already.
Problem is, if they ban me, to be fair, they'd have to ban you and a few others too for regular trolling and baiting first.
Seems to me that you can't take it when someone serves you your own medicine.
First you guys are like "zomg Korrigan you won't stop me from posting lololol!" and then you want me to be banned... do what I say, not what I do, heh? Pot calling the kettle black?

This becomes more funny every day happy


Holy crap, you really have no self awareness whatsoever, do you? This really does get funnier every day.

 

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LadyGodiva. 
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I found the whole thing to be condescending towards their players (specifically the ones that don't appreciate their change of vision for the game.) Don't like the changes? Tough!

I've decided to pass on dungeons until they rethink their stance on healing. If that makes me a "bad" or a face-roller, I don't care. I'm not going to participate in something that's not fun. Leveling alts for now and if that gets old I'll move on to something else.

 

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The_Korrigan 
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LadyGodiva. posted:
I'm not going to participate in something that's not fun.
A sane approach I can only approve. And no, it doesn't make you bad.

 

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Boone-Eldar 
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I am doing the same thing that I did in WotLK. I played until the content took more time than I was willing to invest and then I took a break. I either stopped playing or I goofed around on alts until the next content patch at which time the original content difficulty usually was eased to the point where I could do it in the time I was willing to invest.

 

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dendizner 
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I seriously doubt Ghostcrawler even knows what is going on in his own office. He must be spending way to much time reading the forums.

I'll explain:
Vanilla - My guild didn't ever once set up 'raid times' to run instances to get gear for people to raid. Instances took 2 hours to complete, not because of the difficulty but because of the size of the instance. Took me almost 2 months to gear up for raids; not because of the difficulty of the instances but because of the drop rates of the gear I needed to get into raids.

Burning Crusades - Still didn't set up 'raid times' to complete normal or heroic instances in my guild. Took me 2 weeks of grinding out rep for keys for 2 or 3 heriocs in which I used to get into raids 2 weeks later after getting my keys. Took me 6 months to completely fill out my rep set for my key ring into heroics. Was still raiding the entire time. Heroics took anywhere from 45 minutes - an hour gearing up and went down to about 30 minutes on farm mode after getting out geared (which didn't happen in vanilla).

Wrath of the Lich King - Still didn't set up 'raid times' to complete normal or heroic instances in my guild. Took me about 2 weeks of grinding heroics 4 hours a day (I had cut back my gearing time due to having 4 max level alts at this time and I'm just going to talk about only one of these toons.) Was possible to enter heroics in quested green gear. Time to complete heroics was around 30 minutes to 45 minutes dependent on pug or psuedo pug "/g need peeps for heorics" Was in Naxxramas 10 within a week of release and in Naxx 25 within 3 weeks of release. Adding in the Queue tool for LFD decreased the time it took to get into raids even entry level raids with alt groups in my guild.

Cataclysm - Took me about 15 hours of gameplay to level up to 85 on my first toon. Took me about 2 weeks to get the 329 Ilevel to be able to queue for heroics took me another 2 weeks to get the Ilevel 336 to be able to be viable in heroics ( I tend to only play healers at the start of xpacs and tend to be a healer in raid groups as 'mains'). Even with the rep grind / grinding 3 normals for 333 gear then the rep for purples. Never once steped into a raid.

To sum up:
Gearing in vanilla wasn't difficulty of the raid or instance, it was drop rate of purple in a raid, and length of the instance to gear up for raids.
Gearing in BC was a grind fest for rep, then a grind fest for much better drop rates in heroics.
Gearing in WotLK wasn't a grind fest at all and the content kept the same level of play throughout the entire xpac.
Gearing in Cataclysm is near impossible because you have to 'raid' heroics which defeats the LFD tool, and is near impossible to complete unless your in raid gear as a pug.

The game has never been difficult until now. Solo-ability to reach max level is only one reason WoW has been popular. Ease of getting into raid content is the other reason. They removed that ability and are losing subs because of it. I know this because of the number of posts to address the content to ease the minds of people that might be thinking of leaving like I did.

GL if your still in WoW playing and Like it. I didn't and I left. I'll keep an eye out and see if they fix it. They won't though so I'll bid you addue.

 

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yarfkat 
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I have 3 85's at this time, and i have several others waiting for their turn to be leveled. This is including 3 more 80's, 2 76's, a 74, and then a bunch under 70 on down the totem pole to my uncreated worgen and goblin (read: created but sitting at level 1.) Based on how easy it is to level 80-85, I expect that my alts will all be max level pretty quickly, just need to get past the lump that is 1-80.

With all that in mind, my main has an ilvl of i think 328. I haven't completed a single heroic, yet, though I've tried. Stonecore is a 20 minute run on normal, and after two hours, I had to go to bed because I was working a 12 hour shift the next day. Gearing her isn't easy, and I'll admit, I myself am disheartened. I'm supposed to be recruiting raiders for my guild, but the problem I'm encountering is I don't even want to raid right now. I don't want to do the heroics because they take too long.

I agree that GC's post was a TL:DR L2P. However, I know how to play, and I got very good at playing my priest. I do move out of the dust cloud, I do move out of the ground effects that hurt/kill you. I don't stand in front of dragons or right behind them. However, 2+ hours for a heroic is something I just don't have time to do. I work a full time job, often in the form of 12 hour shifts. I don't want to come home after working for 12 hours and sit for the only 2-2.5 hours I have before I need to go to bed in order to do it all again the next day just to do one heroic. I'd rather use that 2-2.5 hours for RP (yeah I'm on an RP server. Flame me all you want.) or level an alt. Heck, I'd even rather watch youtube some nights or watch a movie with my husband.

I don't mind that they're difficult, I don't mind that they're meant to be time consuming, just that their philosophy of being available to a wide variety of players is defeated if they're also wanting you to be able to devote a full day to two or three instance runs. Not all of us can/will do that. But yeah, I'll keep playing. I enjoy the game and I like the expac so far for the content that's here. My husband is already bored with it. He's the type who, once he's done it he doesn't want to do it again. He doesn't want to wipe for hours in a heroic, either.

So yeah, GC and the devs do have it wrong. We don't want the multi-hour raid time wipefests just to gear up for the multi-hour raid time wipefests as we defeat the raid content.

 

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--Syrus-- 
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I still stand by my ealier conclution that the dungeons have not been made challenging, they have been made tedious.

Ghostcrawler himself admits that players are not having fun. There is a such thing as something that can be challenging with out being tedious.

Challenge and tedium are not one in the same.

That being said I won't bag on them too much because it seems like Blizzard has not created a middle ground between zerg fest dungeons as they call them, and this new tedious content.

I don't know the answer myself here. With the current tools implace I can't suggest ways to create challenge with out making the content tedious. Sure I could dream up new and creative tools and mechanics that could be used as I am sure any of us could. Problem there is I am not a developer so I don't know the guidlines to work with in as far as a certain mechanic being viable from a programming perspective, especially in concidering it working with the existing content.

For now this is Blizzards version of a challenge. This is their vision.

Even though Ghostcrawler doesn't come out and say it, it is plain to me that it is either this way, or go back to how it was in Wrath. At least for now.

Which would you choose?

 

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JaredKorry 
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Right now, the lesser of the 2 evils is the way it was in Wrath. Yes the heroics were too easy and got boring rather quickly with the lol faceroll, but at least the majority of players were running them instead of running away from them.

 

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dendizner 
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JaredKorry posted:
Right now, the lesser of the 2 evils is the way it was in Wrath. Yes the heroics were too easy and got boring rather quickly with the lol faceroll, but at least the majority of players were running them instead of running away from them.


but that was the point of the 2 evils. LOLFACEROLL instances made it where more then 5% of the population got to see raid content. Even high end raid content. Adding in queue's for heroics allowed for even more casuals to enter raid content.

LOLUGOTFACEROLLED heroics is a step into the wrong direction. Look at the # of guilds in high end raid content currently. What is the population % even looking at raid content currently?

I would rather get the majority of players into highend raid content, then to go back to the less then 1% of the people in the entire wow community that I had to down kiljaeden with before WotLK release.

If you know anyone in full highend raid gear atm talk with them for a lil bit about gear. If you don't feel like your completely worthless in less then 5 minutes because of the Epeen waving, you will within a few more minutes.


I learned my lesson with BC about not shakin my Epeen. So what if I was server first to down Illidian. So what if my guild had been raiding since vanilla and was server first C'thun defeat. Didn't make a bit of difference really. We just seen content that others never would until they could just about solo it.

I as a hardcore raider prefer having pugged raid content. If I can step into trade chat and see that people are doing raid content that i'm on. it's better for the community at large. I can talk about encounters and people know what I mean by it.

Twins in AQ40 - do you know what you had to do with 40 60's to beat that encounter?

Twins in ToC - do you know what to do to beat that encounter on 10 or 25 man?

case in point. I want WotLK back for that sole reason.

 

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--Syrus-- 
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Meh, I don't buy the fact that only a very very small percentage of players ever see the higher end content anymore. Yes that was a valid argument in Vanilla when you needed a 40 man group to go into MC and BWL. In order to accomplish that back then you had to havea very organized fairly hard core raiding guild to see that content.

To me that isn't a valid argument anymore. If you really want to see that content you need to make an effort to get yourself into a guild and accomplish that. There are raiding guilds starting up all over the place, look into trade chat for 5 minutes and you'll have the opportunity to join 5 guilds.

Now you only need 10 or 25 people to see this content. If you can't get yourself into this content, it is your own fault plain and simple, I'm not being elitist here, if you want to expirience end game you are going to have to do a little bit more then dancing on the mail box to do it.

I do agree that the heroic content is tedious right now, and because of that less fun. It is still not at the point of being impossible. I've spend a lot of time arguing against the heroic content here, but I would never say its impossible and I would certainly never say only 5% of the player base can access it.

 

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siujoey 
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--Syrus-- posted:
Now you only need 10 or 25 people to see this content. If you can't get yourself into this content, it is your own fault plain and simple, I'm not being elitist here, if you want to expirience end game you are going to have to do a little bit more then dancing on the mail box to do it.


But you need to remember, Syrus- this is a BUSINESS. Blizz can take that same stance all they want and say "it is your own fault if you don't experience the content." The bottom line is if people DON'T take that approach and only a small minority actually experience that content, they still just spent millions upon millions of dollars developing content for little gain.

The biggest thing that is lacking, developmentally speaking, is a consistent vision. Is WoW aimed at the more casual gamer or the hardcore gamer? Pick one, and stick with it. You can't please all of the people all of the time, etc. Learn it, accept it. If you try to make everyone happy, you will end up making no one happy.

WoW is a game, but more importantly it is a product. This reminds me of the POS iPhone. Steve Jobs basically said there was no problem with dropped calls, it was just because people "were holding it wrong." Yeah? Well if everyone holds it the same way.... it's the design that is the problem. Same thing here- if people don't want to be forced into joining a guild and progressing according to GC's vision, it's not the players that are at fault, it's the design. Design based on how your customers will use the product, not based on how you would like them to use the product.

 

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kyrv 
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LadyGodiva. posted:
I found the whole thing to be condescending towards their players (specifically the ones that don't appreciate their change of vision for the game.) Don't like the changes? Tough!

I've decided to pass on dungeons until they rethink their stance on healing. If that makes me a "bad" or a face-roller, I don't care. I'm not going to participate in something that's not fun. Leveling alts for now and if that gets old I'll move on to something else.


I should have added, yes it was condescending. Not sure if I'm just used to it or it wasn't as bad as normal for GC.

On the not fun thing - well one the one hand I appreciate their honesty that they know people don't find it fun. On the other hand - wow.

End game to me is really really super difficult to pull off for games. I don't currently do much of any end game in any of the games I play - just because I don't find it fun. But I understand when people want to play their favorite/main characters too, they are paying to do that.

 

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--Syrus-- 
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I disagree I think you must have a nice mix. Especially if you want to keep a player base of 12 million people growing. If they focused on just the casual content they would loose the hardcore and vise versa. They have done a pretty good job with tht so far.

You have people that only play a couple times a week. The leveling game is great, dungeon finder is going to help get them into dungeons, good stuff.

Then you have the 25 man content, and yes that requires a little bit more of a comitment.

Now I think everyone would agree there are more casual or at least semi-casual gamers in the WoW player base. On the other hand there have been many hardcore, even famous guilds, and you have communities like elistjerks that thrive.

Why pick one group at the expsense of risking the other? You're right this is a product and that would be a terrible business choice.

Also something that few people ever concider is that players evolve. If I start out casual and tern into a hardcore gamer I don't have to go in search of a hardcore game, I just begin to access the hardcore content.

On the other hand if I start out hardcore, (like I did), and now only have the time to log in a couple times a week I don't have to quick, I just have to change my activities a bit.

And again, I still disagree that the end game content is out of reach for the majority of players like you and other posters are suggesting. I figure was thrown out there, 5%. You really believe only 5% of players can access the 25 man end game raid content? I am sure I could find data to disprove this if I was so inclined.

You say you don't want to be forced into a guild to access certain content? Well I am sorry Sir, that is part of the game. Just the same as you are forced to equip a weapon to access certain content, you must join a guild to do so consistanly as well.

Noticed I added "consistanly" in. Because I do believe even unguilded you will still have an opportunity to expirience most of the content.

 

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Arcilite_I 
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siujoey posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
Arcilite_I posted:
Can't someone just ban this asshole already.
Problem is, if they ban me, to be fair, they'd have to ban you and a few others too for regular trolling and baiting first.
Seems to me that you can't take it when someone serves you your own medicine.
First you guys are like "zomg Korrigan you won't stop me from posting lololol!" and then you want me to be banned... do what I say, not what I do, heh? Pot calling the kettle black?

This becomes more funny every day happy


Holy crap, you really have no self awareness whatsoever, do you? This really does get funnier every day.


No, he doesn't...he thinks it's funny from his end, he has no clue what it's like over here lol

 

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Long_Ranger 
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Sounds like a cook blaming his patron's tastebuds rather than admitting that the food he's serving might actually be crap.

If anyone had any doubts about the self-righteousness of Blizzard's designers, this should put paid to that. More people liked the game before he changed things, and now less people like it. And somehow it's our fault for not knowing how to play the game? What an ass.

 

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-MrBean- 
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The title should read....

"Wow, Ghostcrawlers an ass."

 

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--Syrus-- 
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As much as I stand by WoW and will defend that it is a quality game. Ghostcrawler attitude can clearly be seen and it does rub people the wrong way. You can say exactly what he is saying with out coming across as a self righteous dictator.

Instead of saying,

"We know you're not having fun, but that is just becauswe you're not playing the game the way we want you to."

He could just admit that it is a work in progess and sometimes players of an MMO have to do a little product testing of their own, that is just the nature of the best.

 

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Malachi256 
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While I didn't pick it apart with a fine-tooth comb, I did read and/or skim most of it, and it seemed spot on.

My friends and I have conquered and enjoyed every heroic we've run (roughly half a dozen at this point, we're lucky to find 2 nights a week when we're all on). Beating the bosses feels like an accomplishment which is nice.

I think the biggest mistake Bliz made with heroics in cataclysm was mismanagement of expectations.

 

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IndridCole 
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siujoey posted:
Design based on how your customers will use the product, not based on how you would like them to use the product.
I must be missing something here because this last line got me. I did read your whole post, however I feel this 'is' how we use the product. You gear up, go do dungeons, in time they go by quicker. It's the same model as the rest of the expansions; which is what people have been trying to point out.

Does it suck, for some yes. However if you stick with it you'll eventually run a pug with a group that outstrips the gear requirement for the heroic and they'll carry you. It will happen. You may not like it but it will. Unless you never LFD I think we've all hit a point where we were carried at some point.

 

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Auenwing 
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I think arrogance is often a MMO designer's occupational hazard. I almost posted /peer Mackey is that you?

There does need to be a certain amount of arrogance to put out a product that you believe in. And a certain amount that you use to stand in the face of a lot of unhappy customers as a result.

They are never going to please everybody. They know that. So they've opted to focus on a portion of their customer base in round robin time frames (as I've said before - paraphrasing Blizz from TBC.)

Having said that, yes, his post rubbed me the wrong way.

I also have a high standard for "professionalism". Something often lacking these days in companies talking "down to" not "with" their customers.

 

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--Syrus-- 
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I think he thinks he is coming across as "down to earth", or "honest" or "straight forward". However that is not the impression we are all getting. Don't get me wrong I don't want some politically correct patronizing bastard either but well, there it is.

I can also admit though that the MMO community is a very hard lot to please. We tend to over think, and over analyse every little aspect of the game. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it must certainly be a challenge.

 

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Fedup23 
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--Syrus-- posted:
I think he thinks he is coming across as "down to earth", or "honest" or "straight forward". However that is not the impression we are all getting. Don't get me wrong I don't want some politically correct patronizing bastard either but well, there it is.

I can also admit though that the MMO community is a very hard lot to please. We tend to over think, and over analyse every little aspect of the game. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it must certainly be a challenge.



WoW players are THE most dramatic players I have been around. Mountains out of mole hills at every turn! laugh

Ah well.. tongue

 

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Auenwing 
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Fedup23 posted:
--Syrus-- posted:
I think he thinks he is coming across as "down to earth", or "honest" or "straight forward". However that is not the impression we are all getting. Don't get me wrong I don't want some politically correct patronizing bastard either but well, there it is.

I can also admit though that the MMO community is a very hard lot to please. We tend to over think, and over analyse every little aspect of the game. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it must certainly be a challenge.



WoW players are THE most dramatic players I have been around. Mountains out of mole hills at every turn! laugh

Ah well.. tongue



Agree with both. And we're actually a lot less dramatic here on the VN than the official forums used to be. On the other hand, we're used to it. wink

 

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Lol yup. That's for sure. Oh well keeps things interesting.

 

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Spookysheep 
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Bremen_Gaheris posted:


And his comments about the official boards (Healer board specifically I bet) just validates all the complaints. Why even acknowledge and belittle the posters claiming problems if they are a non-issue and small minority of complainers?



That is exactly what gave him away. He is concerned, and he's pretty pissed that he is forced to be concerned because players are not responding like he wanted them to.


His boss is breathing down his neck due to what he is seeing from exit surveys on canceled subscriptions and GC is having to explain himself.


laugh

 

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Festus_Stundagin 
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Spookysheep posted:
Bremen_Gaheris posted:


And his comments about the official boards (Healer board specifically I bet) just validates all the complaints. Why even acknowledge and belittle the posters claiming problems if they are a non-issue and small minority of complainers?



That is exactly what gave him away. He is concerned, and he's pretty pissed that he is forced to be concerned because players are not responding like he wanted them to.


His boss is breathing down his neck due to what he is seeing from exit surveys on canceled subscriptions and GC is having to explain himself.


laugh


yup, the response is almost identical to the banter they gave when they were trying to force the real id thing on people and claiming it was non intrusive {which in its original packaging was a bold faced lie)

 

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I can just picture GC after he is done rightiing out his long winded response, he clicked the submit button then slams his hand on his desk saying, "JUST PLAY THE WAY I WANT YOU TO PLAY DAMMIT!"

Then he logs on his dps warrior.

 

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Kriegprojekt 
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siujoey posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
Arcilite_I posted:
Can't someone just ban this asshole already.
Problem is, if they ban me, to be fair, they'd have to ban you and a few others too for regular trolling and baiting first.
Seems to me that you can't take it when someone serves you your own medicine.
First you guys are like "zomg Korrigan you won't stop me from posting lololol!" and then you want me to be banned... do what I say, not what I do, heh? Pot calling the kettle black?

This becomes more funny every day happy


Holy crap, you really have no self awareness whatsoever, do you? This really does get funnier every day.



Or more fun!

 

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siujoey 
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IndridCole posted:
siujoey posted:
Design based on how your customers will use the product, not based on how you would like them to use the product.
I must be missing something here because this last line got me. I did read your whole post, however I feel this 'is' how we use the product. You gear up, go do dungeons, in time they go by quicker. It's the same model as the rest of the expansions; which is what people have been trying to point out.

Does it suck, for some yes. However if you stick with it you'll eventually run a pug with a group that outstrips the gear requirement for the heroic and they'll carry you. It will happen. You may not like it but it will. Unless you never LFD I think we've all hit a point where we were carried at some point.


That line was basically a long winded way of saying the same thing Syrus said above: GC should just cut through the BS and say "JUST PLAY THE WAY I WANT YOU TO PLAY DAMMIT!"
-Join a guild.
-Do the quests in the order we tell you to so you can enjoy properly our new phasing technology!
-Heal in the correct manner, you've been doing it wrong for a while now.
-And last but not least, an SAT-like word association: "FUN" is to "FRUSTRATION" as "CHALLENGE" is to "TEDIOUS".

 

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OMG... it has all become clear to me, the fog has lifted from my eyes...

World of Warcraft..is..a...fun...challenging...game. Yes..this is truth. *Stares off at the wall smiling.*

 

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Fedup23 
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Festus_Stundagin posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
Rill_of_WE posted:
We wiped for 2 hours on the first boss before calling it quits. We did everything fine. But Blizzard's server seems to think people are standing in the boss dust when we're not.
laugh
No. If you were killed by the worm when he's underground, you were NOT doing everything fine.
And of course, why am I not surprised that people blame the game instead of their inability to not stand in the fire...

Other groups kill the worm just fine. We killed him many times just fine. I guess someone must indeed doing "everything fine".

But don't worry, nerfs are coming, so every incompetent player can just faceroll his daily valor points, just like in WotLK, and stand on the mailbox with his epics.


She is a surely bitch. I wonder how long its been since she had WoW sex. sad

 

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st0rmie 
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The_Korrigan posted:
LadyGodiva. posted:
I'm not going to participate in something that's not fun.
A sane approach I can only approve. And no, it doesn't make you bad.

Indeed. That's why I cancelled my account last April and left it inactive until 4.0 released. The tuning of WotLK was ridiculously un-fun, it was less like playing a game and more like playing a candy machine (pull handle, loot drops out).

dendizner posted:
but that was the point of the 2 evils. LOLFACEROLL instances made it where more then 5% of the population got to see raid content. Even high end raid content. Adding in queue's for heroics allowed for even more casuals to enter raid content.

LOLUGOTFACEROLLED heroics is a step into the wrong direction. Look at the # of guilds in high end raid content currently. What is the population % even looking at raid content currently?

wowprogress.com has about 21,300 guilds (worldwide) with at least one raid boss kill. How many players that represents is anyone's guess (especially since they can't easily distinguish 10-man and 25-man kills), but I suspect it would in the ballpark of half a million - or a little over 10% of those that have purchased Cataclysm. I honestly don't think that's too unreasonable, for five weeks after the expansion launched.

 

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Cryme 
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Just a question sort of related to the topic.

Are the WotLK instances and raids still super easy then, or did they get tweaked with Cataclysm? Is the reward system for them the same and everything?

Can you use dungeon finder for 10-man and/or 25-man stuff too?

I left very shortly after LK released, my playtime had went away and my guildmates were all 80 and progressing through content while I was still 74 or something, so that's when I quit. I've never experienced most of the LK content and would still like to. With everyone doing Cata stuff now, is there any chance I'll get to see the 10/25 man content of LK, or will I be relegated to the 5-man content I can experience through the Dungeon Finder?

I've started over on a new server with a new toon to experience the revised old world, so I'm still only 32, and there is no such thing as a 10-man dungeon yet. I've found using the DF for the 5-man stuff super handy though and am loving it so far.

 

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Demorak 
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Not to sound like too much of an arse here, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you are in a heroic that seems to be taking 4 hours to complete...........leave, somebody is doing something wrong.

While I can agree that some bosses are more on the level of tedium rather than challenging. But I have yet to see any boss one-shot anyone who is paying attention to the fight. Now I know with all the bullcrap some of the bosses do, it can get annoying trying to look out for everything they can throw at you. Some of them are in the process of being fixed.

My opinion/observations thus far is that most of the issues in heroics are still on the players shoulders and them being bad, undergeared or just uninformed of how the boss fight goes.

I still see players on a daily basis getting the regular dungeon achievements in their heroic runs, this alone is a huge part of the problem. They are going in completely blind of the entire instance and what you need to do in them. Of course, I put most of the blame on Blizzards shoulders with this. They designed 80-85 progression to happen way too fast and leave no room/reason to actually get in the regular versions of heroics. Combine that with it not being required to gear through normal runs to reach the 329 ilevel heroic entrance requirement, it gets silly.

Not to add another hurdle/speedbump, but it should be a requirement that you at least completed the regular dungeon version before having access to its heroic form

TL;DR version: I'm still of the opinion that most of the issues in heroics are on the players shoulders based on what I've observed, but Blizzard is not without blame in their design.

peace

 

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Cryme 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Demorak posted:
Not to add another hurdle/speedbump, but it should be a requirement that you at least completed the regular dungeon version before having access to its heroic form
peace
I agree with this completely as well.

 

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yarfkat 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Cryme posted:
Demorak posted:
Not to add another hurdle/speedbump, but it should be a requirement that you at least completed the regular dungeon version before having access to its heroic form
peace
I agree with this completely as well.


Thirded... or whatever..


Anyway, to all those saying that "if you get killed by the worm and die, you did something wrong, not the game."

I'm going to fraps my heroic run tonight and show you just how far away you sometimes are and get killed by it (assuming it happens tonight.) I have been completely out of the dust and been hit by it, so have others in my groups. It's not a "You are lolbad if you die to it." It could possibly be the hitbox for it is larger than the dust cloud. It wouldn't be the first effect that had a hitbox larger than the visual object. Yogg Saron's gas clouds anyone?

Anyway, I think that it's safe to say that the way the game plays right now is frustrating, yes, but then at the same time, I LOVE IT! I'm not a fanatic for WoW or someone who will stand by GC's every word and think it's a sacred gospel or anything, but I can tell you that I like a lot about the new system.

I like how you can't queue for a dungeon until you find the entrance. I like how you can't get into heroics until you have gear for it. I haven't even raided, and I like how you can't raid until you're geared from heroics.


I do NOT like being able to queue from instances from 15+. Honestly I've done that on a couple alts and kinda missed the questing, the immersion in the game, the feeling of doing something instead of nothing. I have a level 76 warrior tank... who's in Dragonblight finishing the quests. I've done instances but I'm just... more interested in seeing the content. I can honestly tell you that my hunter and priest are the only two who have set foot into cataclysm dungeons. My Druid has not. She still has all the quests for the dungeons in her quest log. I had more fun NOT doing the dungeons, and on normal they are easy.

The next toon I bring up will be the same. She's not going to be in the cataclysm dungeons unless a guildy asks me to go or some such.

So yeah, people can think that this expac sucks, but so far the only thing I don't like about it is the fact I can't find Deathwing to get "Stood in Fire" achievement. The worgen starting zone is incredibly immersive. I haven't done the goblin one yet, but I have a feeling it will be, too.

 

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Demorak 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
yarfkat posted:
Cryme posted:
Demorak posted:
Not to add another hurdle/speedbump, but it should be a requirement that you at least completed the regular dungeon version before having access to its heroic form
peace
I agree with this completely as well.



Anyway, to all those saying that "if you get killed by the worm and die, you did something wrong, not the game."

I'm going to fraps my heroic run tonight and show you just how far away you sometimes are and get killed by it (assuming it happens tonight.) I have been completely out of the dust and been hit by it, so have others in my groups. It's not a "You are lolbad if you die to it." It could possibly be the hitbox for it is larger than the dust cloud. It wouldn't be the first effect that had a hitbox larger than the visual object. Yogg Saron's gas clouds anyone?


I can definitely attest to this. I don't think it's so much a hitbox size issue as much as it is 'Are you out of its hitbox before the internal timer says the worm is going to hit you?'

Being a hunter, I've disengaged out of the dust and still died 15 yards away.

 

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Zero_Washu 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
JaredKorry posted:
Right now, the lesser of the 2 evils is the way it was in Wrath. Yes the heroics were too easy and got boring rather quickly with the lol faceroll, but at least the majority of players were running them instead of running away from them.


But they were only faceroll easy after people were almost entirely 219 or 226+ in gear. I remember doing my first heroics in with a mix of 187 and 200 gear and having 21k as a tank! I remember healing with less than 2k spell power, way less. I remember healing those 18 to 21k tanks.

The difference here is the unavoidable damage mechanics they have in the new instances. You cannot mitigate it. The get out of the fire/dust/etc only results much more severe damage - those mechanics aren't bad to deal with but we do have people who cannot see them - the number of layering effects from players can cause them to not display for some people. Still those can be dealt with. What is insulting is the damage that is gratuitous damage, the damage to groups that cannot be avoided and is over the top. From flame elemental mobs that 360 attack, can only have the current cast interrupted - they immediately cast again - to some others that just 360 smack everyone and do it HARD. Its not fun. Top it off with healers facing a staggering nerf to efficiency and its not fun.

How bad were healers hit? Using my 78 and 85 shamans. At 78 Healing Surge is 1042m to 8312h (Mana cost to healed health) but at 85 it is 5946m to 12071h. Riptide is 385m/3112-4905h and at 85 it is 2202m/10598-14803h. How is that fun? Seeing your effectiveness plummet as you level. It was easier to heal regular Stonecore and the like at 82 than 85! I could actually cast many more heals.

As for my tank, ty, I just love mobs I cannot interrupt, cannot face, and if I do interrupt they IMMEDIATELY start casting all over again.

Nah, they made it tedious and then added challenge by nerfing healers into oblivion. The same effect would have been to halve dps - but you know the screaming that would come of that.

 

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Unstruck 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
siujoey posted:
That line was basically a long winded way of saying the same thing Syrus said above: GC should just cut through the BS and say "JUST PLAY THE WAY I WANT YOU TO PLAY DAMMIT!"
-Join a guild.
-Do the quests in the order we tell you to so you can enjoy properly our new phasing technology!
-Heal in the correct manner, you've been doing it wrong for a while now.
-And last but not least, an SAT-like word association: "FUN" is to "FRUSTRATION" as "CHALLENGE" is to "TEDIOUS".

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Zero_Washu posted:
The difference here is the unavoidable damage mechanics they have in the new instances. You cannot mitigate it.
Not to mention the nerfs to other forms of mitigation and avoidance. I suspect they did this with the intention of nerfing overgeared people solo-farming heroics or older normals and what they ended up doing was nerfing the hell out of many group comps.

 

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Blisteringballs 
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That has to be the most pliable and kind post Ghostcrawler has ever issued to community ire to date, and from the developers point of view quite logical. However, it will still be interpreted as passive aggressive and rude by many players.

 

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-MrBean- 
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Blisteringballs posted:
That has to be the most pliable and kind post Ghostcrawler has ever issued to community ire to date, and from the developers point of view quite logical. However, it will still be interpreted as passive aggressive and rude by many players.


What the hell did you read?

The whole post starts with a sarcastic possibly even belittling title.

 

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Blisteringballs 
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-MrBean- posted:
Blisteringballs posted:
That has to be the most pliable and kind post Ghostcrawler has ever issued to community ire to date, and from the developers point of view quite logical. However, it will still be interpreted as passive aggressive and rude by many players.


What the hell did you read?

The whole post starts with a sarcastic possibly even belittling title.


You kind of proved my point, though I wasn't trying to make one, just offering an opinion.

Edit: just because I said I found it to be his most kind post, doesn't mean that I didn't find parts of it obstinate. And such.

 

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st0rmie 
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Cryme posted:
Can you use dungeon finder for 10-man and/or 25-man stuff too?

No. There has been some talk about such functionality being added, but at present, no.

Cryme posted:
I left very shortly after LK released, my playtime had went away and my guildmates were all 80 and progressing through content while I was still 74 or something, so that's when I quit. I've never experienced most of the LK content and would still like to. With everyone doing Cata stuff now, is there any chance I'll get to see the 10/25 man content of LK, or will I be relegated to the 5-man content I can experience through the Dungeon Finder?

Unfortunately, I would say that your only chance of seeing the LK raid content (or the vanilla or TBC raid content, for that matter) would be riding along with some level 85's smashing it for the achievements. Potentially there might be some "don't like Cataclysm" level 80 guild out there somewhere - I know there were vanilla guilds in the past.

 

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dendizner 
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Anyone else find it funny that GC had to point out that people are pointing out things on the forum and is sick of it?

-Spacelord- posted:
Nice post from Ghostcrawler.

In Conclusion
We do understand that some healers are frustrated and giving up. That is sad and unfortunate. But the degree to which it's happening, at least at this point in time, is vastly overstated on the forums. We also know that plenty of players like the changes and find healing more enjoyable now. Both sides need to spend a little less effort trying to drown out the other side claiming that everyone they know -- and by extension, “the majority of players” -- agree with their point. You shouldn’t need to invoke a silent majority if you can make an articulate and salient point.



I had 150 people in my guild before Cata. There was hardly any spam in trade about how 'x' guild is recruiting. The release of Cata and the guild dropped to 43 people with no healers and no tanks within 2 weeks after release. Trade was being nearly spammed for recruitment of tanks and healers to the point of not being able to sell ore, herbs, and or skins before I /unsubscribed.

Now when 20 of the 43 left go to the forums to complain while 10 of thier buddies give up and leave, how is that an insane point? Granted not everyone was leaving but the majority of people they have known for years, and I mean years are gone. People that have gone from vanilla to cata and all of the nerfs, core rewrites, and mechanics of character play rewriten without leaving before.

Pointing out that there is a problem of people saying that there is a problem, and then saying there isn't a problem; while at the same time saying there is a problem is.... well..... an insane point isn't it?

Sorry had to ask.

GC summed up:

There isn't any problem you're playing wrong, here is how you play. I understand that your not having fun playing my way and that is a problem. Stop telling me you have a problem with how I want you to play. The problem isn't me, it's you for telling me there is a problem. Just pony up that cash and get your friends to play and or come back to play. You'll see that your the problem. Get over the fact that we've been doing things the right way for 6 years and decided to make a complete 180.

 

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Spookysheep 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Any time a developer starts trying to silence people on forums they are getting nervous, and usually get canned shortly afterwards.

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Spookysheep posted:
Any time a developer starts trying to silence people on forums they are getting nervous, and usually get canned shortly afterwards.
Hopefully _after_ having an epic meltdown on the game's forums. grin

 

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_Taebo_ 
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They made it hard because there isn't a hell of a lot to do in this expansion. 5 Levels. No new classes. No alternate advancement (Titan's system canned). Unless you like rerolling level 1's and going through 1-60 again, there's a week work of levelling, even casually then it's 1 hour waits in queues, unless you a group on standby.

This expansion has to last 2 years, or at least 18 months and they've given us the least amount of content of the 3 expansions.

 

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IndridCole 
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I'm curious: What was your expectation for the amount of time it would take to go from running normal dungeons to successfully running heroics?

 

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Tedious does not = fun.......some people here seems to think it does.

 

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Trigeminal 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Spookysheep posted:
Any time a developer starts trying to silence people on forums they are getting nervous, and usually get canned shortly afterwards.


Origination: Forums / Comments
Ban Type: Spamming / Trolling
Expires: Sunday, January 16, 2011 6:42:47 PM UTC (in 3 hours, 24 minutes)
Ban Reason: This account has been suspended from the World of Warcraft forums for a 72 hour period for trolling the forums. "4.0.6 shapeshifting change (Current) - Jan 13, 2011 3:50:50 PM------------omg this patch gets better and better. I love it. See you in BGs.

TLDR?
Sarcastic remark made with my mage about the inability of druids to shift out of frost novas/etc now.

This got removed and a 3-day ban?!? I've bolded the sarcasm that got me the ban. It is obviously offensive /rollseyes. It is Nazi Germany over on the official forums. They are trying to "pretty" up their forums I guess so potential customers think there is nothing wrong with the game.

 

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Malachi256 
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I made half a dozen posts blasting Bliz for the druid change - some civil, some constructive, some not-so-much... didn't get into any trouble at all. Very strange that they would get upset over what you posted - doesn't make much sense.

 

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--Syrus-- 
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 Subject: Wow, Dungeons are Hard!
Malachi256 posted:
I made half a dozen posts blasting Bliz for the druid change - some civil, some constructive, some not-so-much... didn't get into any trouble at all. Very strange that they would get upset over what you posted - doesn't make much sense.


Could it be that we aren't getting the full story?

 

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Trigeminal 
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--Syrus-- posted:
Malachi256 posted:
I made half a dozen posts blasting Bliz for the druid change - some civil, some constructive, some not-so-much... didn't get into any trouble at all. Very strange that they would get upset over what you posted - doesn't make much sense.


Could it be that we aren't getting the full story?


You are getting the exact story I did. Went to make post asking if my warrior was "heroic ready" while logged out in my prot gear... said I was banned. I clicked on the 'read more' link that followed and copy pasted here. I never post anything racist, demeaning, vulgar or crude in any forum. Yet if you make a post that sarcastically outlines the idea of mage dominance over a class in pvp and boom! ban.

 

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--Syrus-- 
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Trigeminal posted:
--Syrus-- posted:
Malachi256 posted:
I made half a dozen posts blasting Bliz for the druid change - some civil, some constructive, some not-so-much... didn't get into any trouble at all. Very strange that they would get upset over what you posted - doesn't make much sense.


Could it be that we aren't getting the full story?


You are getting the exact story I did. Went to make post asking if my warrior was "heroic ready" while logged out in my prot gear... said I was banned. I clicked on the 'read more' link that followed and copy pasted here. I never post anything racist, demeaning, vulgar or crude in any forum. Yet if you make a post that sarcastically outlines the idea of mage dominance over a class in pvp and boom! ban.



Sounds like the mod got rolled one to many times.

 

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