GutterSludge posted:

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People honestly expected to have the "switch" flipped on for Cata, jump into heroics, and be roflstomping face after 23 days?

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Broken_Kayfabe posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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People honestly expected to have the "switch" flipped on for Cata, jump into heroics, and be roflstomping face after 23 days?

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That's the kind of player they've been carefully cultivating for the past couple years, and now they are surprised those players aren't too keen on things challenging up a bit?

Blizzard doesn't know their own playerbase very well.

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IndridCole posted:

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I wouldn't agree with that statement. Why? Because if you think back, what was one of the biggest complaints for players at the end of Wrath? That people were running through the same dungeons over and over in order to get frosties. The runs were fast and they got annoying.

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IndridCole posted:

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I don't think using the LFD to run through wrath dungeons in 5 minutes was thier vision.

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IndridCole posted:

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It blows my mind that people complain about it being 'too easy' then complain about it not being 'easy enough'.

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IndridCole posted:

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Instead of pulling a group of 10 now you pull 2 or 3. You don't like it..leave.
I have no problem taking 2 hours out of my SAturday evening to run a regular dungeon, if I had to work at it and it was fun.

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GutterSludge posted:

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But it almost seems that people want the "end of wrath" gameplay, at the beginning of Cata, and none remember the "beginning of wrath" gameplay.

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Broken_Kayfabe posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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People honestly expected to have the "switch" flipped on for Cata, jump into heroics, and be roflstomping face after 23 days?

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That's the kind of player they've been carefully cultivating for the past couple years, and now they are surprised those players aren't too keen on things challenging up a bit?

Blizzard doesn't know their own playerbase very well.

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Unstruck posted:

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Excellent perspective on the whole situation, Gutter. Inspirational, too. I fell into that mindset myself a little bit, once I saw how daunting it would be to gear up my priest.

My only remaining issue was priest healing, and the lack of fun involved with it. I've respecced to Holy and plan on experimenting with new methods of healing. If it works out, and I hope it does, then I look forward to the work involved with getting geared up with my guild mates.

I'm still going to avoid heroic pugs, however.

Great thread.

EDIT: On account of the regular dungeon I just did, and the mage not CCing, DPS not killing marked targets, me talking to myself the whole time, and me having to heal 4 players who can't follow simple instructions (and thus going OOM on a trash pull that wiped), I won't be healing pugs anymore. Done.

Going shadow in pugs to gear up. I've had it.

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Arcilite_I posted:

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There is absolutely no difference between running an easy dungeon 4 times at 15 minutes a pop and 1 hard dungeon at an hour long.

If you think there is, you probably believe America has a two party system too.

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Arcilite_I posted:

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you probably believe America has a two party system too.

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GutterSludge posted:

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But it almost seems that people want the "end of wrath" gameplay, at the beginning of Cata, and none remember the "beginning of wrath" gameplay.

They want to overgear the content, without overgearing the content.


That is not Blizzard's fault.

Edit: Keep in mind, I'm not saying there are no issues with mechanincs. I'm not saying everything is perfect.

I'm just iterating that it's only been 23 days.

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heiromancerdrackus posted:

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I haven't been let down by Cata outside of Tol Barad. That shit needs to be fixed. I expected more triple A questing and lore, harder dungeons and new loot. That's what I got, in spades.

*shrug*

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GutterSludge posted:

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Has anyone stopped to think that all Blizzard has done is change the method of the timesink? From spending hour upon hour questing and leveling,(vanilla, tbc) or spending hour upon hour grinding no brainer 5 mans (wrath).. to spending hour upon hour obtaining rep, running regulars, and crafting?? Instead of "grinding" heroics for badges as a fresh 80, actually spending time learning to complete the dungeons as an 85? Learning your character to a "tee" in order to survive in heroics? Spending your time actually playing the game, rather than spamming AOE through 6,000 heroics while watching re-runs of whatever show you like?


I am as casual a player as they come. But I have to admit I am somewhat amazed that 23 days into an expansion, that people expect to have already "won" the game, without putting in any time whatsoever. (in a relative sense, of course, to past time expenditures)


I say the timesink is still there, even though 80-85 can be attained over a single weekend, and that it is just presented to the players in a different manner. It is still the same old timesink, and 3 weeks in is just seems like hardly any time at all.

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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The only expectation that seems seriously off right now is Blizzard's healing 'vision' versus a large majority of people who want to play the healing class. Which should rectify itself here in another month or so (as queue times continue to lag, because healers are quitting en masse).

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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Except that queue times, and more specifically healer queue times, have dramatically changed which is exactly what you would expect if the complaints were more than a small vocal minority from this forum.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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So what did change? Healers still get in PUGs instantly. Tanks, same thing. DPS have to wait from 5 to 15 minutes, depending the time of the day and the realm.

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st0rmie posted:

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The_Korrigan posted:

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So what did change? Healers still get in PUGs instantly. Tanks, same thing. DPS have to wait from 5 to 15 minutes, depending the time of the day and the realm.

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Tanks get in PUGs instantly. As a healer, I don't. Still always 5-10 minutes to get in. DPS claim it's more like 30-45 minutes. This is playing Australian primetime though, it's surely less busy that US primetime.

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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Well, for starters, tanks used to be instant and now aren't - although only 2-3 minute waits at most.

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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Healers used to wait 5-10 minutes on my server and are now instant.

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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DPS used to be 15-20 minutes at most, and now it's crawling upwards of 45minutes. Those are changes in queue times in my experience.

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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I'd just add that the only random healers that appear to be enjoying themselves atm are Shaman. Well, and apparently raid healers. But raiding has always been a job, so I'm not surprised those healers enjoy the game as is.

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Conceited posted:

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I enjoyed the "keying" system prior to the changes during BC.

Access to the Heroic versions generally meant you at least knew the normal dungeon. Sometimes not, as you could quest to get the rep for the key.

I loved the Onyxia key chain. I was also one of the few that worked to get my UBRS key, on a couple of characters actually. The Molten Core chain was pretty cool too.

I miss the days where you actually had to put some effort into doing certain things.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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Except that queue times, and more specifically healer queue times, have dramatically changed which is exactly what you would expect if the complaints were more than a small vocal minority from this forum.

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Did it, really? Still takes less than 10s for my tank to get into a random PUG. Note that I didn't do it for at least a week since I mostly do guild groups. The times as DPS seem to be similar to the times in WotLK too.

So what did change? Healers still get in PUGs instantly. Tanks, same thing. DPS have to wait from 5 to 15 minutes, depending the time of the day and the realm.

What did change?

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Conceited posted:

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I enjoyed the "keying" system prior to the changes during BC.

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Arcilite_I posted:

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There is absolutely no difference between running an easy dungeon 4 times at 15 minutes a pop and 1 hard dungeon at an hour long.

If you think there is, you probably believe America has a two party system too.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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I have a hard time understanding why "casuals" complain about this... they were asking for challenging "raid level" content for years now on this very forum. Blizzard gave them the challenge, now we have heroic bosses which are really interesting and take some thought to beat... and now it's too hard. No comment.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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I have yet to hear a healer who has a major problem with the expansion

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Pacorra posted:

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I like challenging content and I love wiping to learn it, I was very excited about this. But when I LFD, my experience is very little about being challenged, and mostly about being assaulted (directly or indirectly) by selfishness, greediness, impatience, fingerpointing. The alternative, running regulars, gets old really fast because they are very limited in number, not very exciting in terms of gear rewards, and still contains a fair amount of the above behaviour.

It's a pity, but that's my experience.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Pacorra posted:

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I like challenging content and I love wiping to learn it, I was very excited about this. But when I LFD, my experience is very little about being challenged, and mostly about being assaulted (directly or indirectly) by selfishness, greediness, impatience, fingerpointing. The alternative, running regulars, gets old really fast because they are very limited in number, not very exciting in terms of gear rewards, and still contains a fair amount of the above behaviour.

It's a pity, but that's my experience.

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Your problem doesn't lie in the content then, but in the people you play with.
Newsflash: many people in PUGs are morons. True story. This is true since the old ages of UO, EQ or AC1. Don't believe me? Go read the "Imanewbie" comic that was made during the golden age of UO.

The best way to play a MMORPG was always to be member of a good, like minded guild. Then you are sure you won't be disappointed. But if you rely on random people, it's exactly the same as in any community, be it on the net or in real life. Yeah, you will meet some nice people, but you must also accept you're gonna meet a lot of stupid, immature and incompetent ones, or just people you don't go along with.

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Bremen_Gaheris posted:

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So, it is the people's fault that people are unhappy now with a lot of the changes? Not Blizzard's fault for doing a switcheroo with game mechanics? During WOTLK, I met a lot of cool people and had no need to build some friendship just to run a dungeon with them. I don't want to meet my next best real life buddy in this video game. I just want to play a game with like minded people and have some fun.

I had great luck with the dungeon finder before. Now, not so much. Did the players all of a sudden contract raibies and go mad? Or did the game change to make people more confrontational and hateful?

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Bremen_Gaheris posted:

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So, it is the people's fault that people are unhappy now with a lot of the changes? Not Blizzard's fault for doing a switcheroo with game mechanics? During WOTLK, I met a lot of cool people and had no need to build some friendship just to run a dungeon with them. I don't want to meet my next best real life buddy in this video game. I just want to play a game with like minded people and have some fun.

I had great luck with the dungeon finder before. Now, not so much. Did the players all of a sudden contract raibies and go mad? Or did the game change to make people more confrontational and hateful?

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I must have misread this forum during WotLK then. I've seen the same people complain about the same behaviors in PUGs. People with crap gear doing crap damage, idiots not knowing their class but insisting on doing heroics, rude "I'm in a hurry GOGOGOGO!" behavior, you name it, it was mentioned here during WotLK.
The main difference is possibly that during WotLK, one idiot in a group wasn't game breaking because dungeons were easier, and also people were used to have at least half the group utterly overgearing heroics. Now the tune has changed, and the dancers must be more careful about their steps, making a single moron in your group sometimes game breaking if your group is already at the limit of the gear level for heroics.

You guys got too used to easy mode.

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Bremen_Gaheris posted:

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WOTLK it was people talking about the exceptions. Cata, it is people talking about the new rule.

And the dungeons now are not hard. They have tricks just like WOTLK had and the tricks once learned or once outgeared make it easy. New dungeons are no different. How are they harder besides gimped healer mechanics, inflated damage, and people not outgearing them?

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GutterSludge posted:

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Has anyone stopped to think that all Blizzard has done is change the method of the timesink? From spending hour upon hour questing and leveling,(vanilla, tbc) or spending hour upon hour grinding no brainer 5 mans (wrath).. to spending hour upon hour obtaining rep, running regulars, and crafting?? Instead of "grinding" heroics for badges as a fresh 80, actually spending time learning to complete the dungeons as an 85? Learning your character to a "tee" in order to survive in heroics? Spending your time actually playing the game, rather than spamming AOE through 6,000 heroics while watching re-runs of whatever show you like?

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• You need a holy trinity group to complete max-level instances.


• Corrolary to the previous complaint: You need a cookie-cutter spec to be viable in your role.


• You MUST have certain classes along for certain fights or it was nigh impossible to do with at-level gear.

Blisteringballs posted:

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Running four instances an hour instead of one equaled more reward and fun. More diversity, more badges, more feeling like you were doing different things in a game, etc.

And one run in a single hour now is being generous for most. It's more like two hours with half of it being consumed by corpse runs and prep. Not fun.

Oh and all you get is the single serving allotment of justice and maybe, god willing, a drop.

Two weeks of that monotonous crap and no wonder people are ready to leave.

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Spookysheep posted:

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Wonder if there are any complete idiots who will actually come here and argue otherwise, thereby announcing their idiocy?

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