Author Topic: Sad players you are.
huldu 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Blizzard posted:
Also, I think right now you're seeing more in-progress dungeons pop because, in general, the dungeons are more challenging now than they were when the Looking For Dungeon feature was first introduced in Wrath of the Lich King. Some players may get frustrated and bail at the first sign of trouble, instead of realizing that everyone may have to work a little harder than they're used to in order to conquer a dungeon.


A few weeks or months and they have nerfed everything to the ground. Basically they're saying; you players do not want to work harder, ie, actually play for a challenge. This is quite confusing because i keep reading that you want a challenge and all of kind of crap. The fun thing is when you do get a challenge(like we're ever to see that in WoW) or anything remotely close you turn into a wimp.

 

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jojo263 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
the content is fine for people who run in guild groups.

That post is about the dungeon finder not shocked about it at all and in the end blizzard will nerf everything to make people use it again and keep the que times moving.

 

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Auenwing 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Still looking for a challenge, (still hoping they leave CC in). Still planning to problem solve when problems occur. Still planning to refine, refine, refine.

Nothing different than standard playstyle since '01.


Nothing different than most of the players on the VN.

Still expecting nerfs? Yup. At a minimum of 6 months from now.

 

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_Warlucky_ 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
huldu posted:
Blizzard posted:
Also, I think right now you're seeing more in-progress dungeons pop because, in general, the dungeons are more challenging now than they were when the Looking For Dungeon feature was first introduced in Wrath of the Lich King. Some players may get frustrated and bail at the first sign of trouble, instead of realizing that everyone may have to work a little harder than they're used to in order to conquer a dungeon.


A few weeks or months and they have nerfed everything to the ground. Basically they're saying; you players do not want to work harder, ie, actually play for a challenge. This is quite confusing because i keep reading that you want a challenge and all of kind of crap. The fun thing is when you do get a challenge(like we're ever to see that in WoW) or anything remotely close you turn into a wimp.


Poor interpretation of what they are saying. Blizz is saying that the majority of people do not like wiping constantly. Its about as fun as doing PvP against somebody who is 40 levels above you.

Making encounters that require some tactics is ok but making them so there is no room for any error is not, especially when it comes to random groups.

 

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Cawlin 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
_Warlucky_ posted:
Blizz is saying that the majority of people do not like wiping constantly. Its about as fun as doing PvP against somebody who is 40 levels above you.

Making encounters that require some tactics is ok but making them so there is no room for any error is not, especially when it comes to random groups.


Interesting thought you bring up here.

Raiders wipe constantly as they learn a new boss or new raid instance. It's not fun for them, but the achievement of completing the encounter/raid instance and getting the rewards is what IS fun and is what keeps them going through the constant wipes. That's part of the game.

In raiding, many encounters, especially when raid instances are new allow very little, if any room for error in order to be successful and to be rewarded. The room for error increases with gear, encounter familiarity, player skill, and raid group coordination.

What you are saying is that this standard is not appropriate for groups of "random" players, yet the rewards for random groups for completing a dungeon are the same as the rewards for a well coordinated, well geared, guild group of players who know their classes inside and out completing that dungeon. Just like in a raid instance, the margin for error in a 5-man grows wider with gear, player skill, coordination, and encounter familiarity. Should dungeons be tuned differently with the same tuning applied to the rewards for completing them in that a dungeon with lesser difficulty gives correspondingly lesser rewards?

Even in PvP there are rankings which must be earned for the good gear, why then should there not be similar effort/skill required to obtain the rewards in PvE?

 

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Malachi256 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Random people + challenge = fail.

It just doesn't work. The reason guilds put up with failure is because they are investing in the player, not so much in the loot. They know (or at least hope) that the player will improve their skill and learn the encounters so that future attempts will go much more smoothly, and even future unseen content will start to get better as everyone increases their skill level.

But in a random group, investing in the player is seen as a waste of time (especially if you don't even know if Joe Blow is drunk, high, 8 years old, watching TV, etc). You'll never see this person again, you won't reap the benefit of helping them improve. You CAN'T even group with them again if you want to (this is the huge flaw with the current LFD system, IMHO... no cross realm friending. Total disaster).


I personally am glad that heroic 5-mans have some balls again, but it's no surprise at all that people are crying a river.

 

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bobbanator 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
AION had it down pretty good. You could do just about any dungeon with a PUG and not wipe. If you were Elitists and had all the top of the line gear you could do the dungeon faster than a PUG with good gear but you still could wipe if your PUG had people in that had no clue how to play their class. Every dungeon/raid had a margin for error that didnt cause hostility between friends.

I did leave wow for awhile because it was so frustrating to have an entire raid wipe because one person hit the wrong button on their keyboard. Then everyon castrated them sad kicked them from the raid and killed their puppy. People couldnt afford to have patients with the way it was before.


 

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-Mithan- 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Edited by Mith on 12/18/10 5:18 PM (UTC)
Blizzard's tuning isn't so much the issue as the player base, however we have to go with the player base as that is who we are playing with in-game. If I get 4 other good people in a group, I don't care how hard the instance is. However, 9 times out of 10, I end up with 1 or 2 poorer players and we can't finish the instance.

However, let us look at the bigger picture for a minute:

People keep playing when they are making meaningful progress. Take that away or inhibit it, and they get bored, which means they cancel. WoW Classic and TBC had a large number of people cancel months after the "newness" of the expansion wore off and one of the big reasons was lack of progression. For TBC, the one path open to them (Heroics) was too much of a waste of time for most, as it was far to tedious to run 2 hour instances in order to get 3 badges for your loot that cost 100+ badges. WotLK kept people playing longer because it had a progression path open to them (Heroic grinding).

Blizzard made a big mistake here and the end result will be nerfs or cancellations in the summer. They can deny it all they want but in the end, even those who like the harder content, will detest it months down the road when they are grinding and sick of doing the same boring instances over and over again and just want to get it "done".

Of course, those saying "we like the harder content" now, are also the ones that wont be bothering with Heroics because they will be in raids, which makes me wonder why Blizzard even cares about their opinion on the matter in the long run.

Right now, if Blizzard was to tune the trash down a bit, things would be a lot better for groups and "harder bosses" wouldn't be such a big deal because the wipe tolerance for any given group, would be used on the bosses, not the trash as is done now and those of us sick of wasting our time on failed groups, wouldn't be as pissed off.

I just hope we don't enter into a situation where Ghostcrawler and Co, will not want to "lose face" and will keep this design going even longer than it should.

 

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-Mithan- 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Just to add to what I said above:
I view this in terms of a Wipe Budget.

You have only X amount of wipes before a group fails. 
The cost of a failure is:
pissed off people
lack of knowledge gained because people don't get more attempts to learn
loss of loot
lack of progression
waste of time
etc, etc.

This Wipe Budget should not be wasted on trash mobs, it should be wasted on bosses.This is what my major issue is with the expansion today.People are so frustrated that we don't even give each other a chance anymore and it is pitiful and the end result accomplishes NOTHING. 

Again, it is an issue with the player base, not Blizzard, but the player base is who we play with and thus the lowest common denominator is what determines the overall success here for everybody. 

Perhaps blizzard needs to introduce some other Rating system to factor into the LFG system.  I don't know.  What I do know is that I am SICK of failed groups.

 

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Spookysheep 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Perfectly stated Mithan.

 

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GutterSludge 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
It's only been a week and a half...

 

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Cawlin 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
First off, there are always cancellations during the Summer months, whether or not the number of those will be above and beyond what is "usual" is yet to be seen.

Second, I don't know where all this data about subscriptions increasing or decreasing and the reasons for that is located, but I would love it if people would link me to it or in some way, shape, or form, elaborate on their source of that information.

Maybe Bliz should implement some sort of "hard" dungeon level for the PuGs that is somewhere between normal and heroic, but gives half the reward points or something. Frankly, I don't understand why blizzard even considers the opinions of the folks who can't be bothered to even read their class abilities and can't be bothered to learn to press more than the DPSMOAR button.

 

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heiromancerdrackus 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
GutterSludge posted:
It's only been a week and a half...




Seriously, and not to sound like I'm beating a dead horse, but it gets significantly easier with gear!!!! .

Week 1 was ATROCIOUSLY hard on me. Week 2, not so bad. Now, at the tail end? Very little problems. Even managed to keep EVERYONE alive on the Prophet fight in H LC when a druid starfalled pack of 4 that was patting over.

 

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Cawlin 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
heiromancerdrackus posted:
GutterSludge posted:
It's only been a week and a half...




Seriously, and not to sound like I'm beating a dead horse, but it gets significantly easier with gear!!!! .

Week 1 was ATROCIOUSLY hard on me. Week 2, not so bad. Now, at the tail end? Very little problems. Even managed to keep EVERYONE alive on the Prophet fight in H LC when a druid starfalled pack of 4 that was patting over.


To elaborate on and in agreement with both of your remarks: If you remember in BC, people didn't generally consider themselves ready for heroics in green gear. Part of the reason for that was in early BC they had to grind reputation in part, by doing the instances on normal to get the rep for the heroic key. It wasn't until late in BC that a person in "greens" was seen in heroics and even then, were generally being carried by guildies.

The gear people have right now, which they're using to jump right into heroics is essentially the level 70 green gear and quested blues.

 

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TruthyID 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Unfortunately for Blizzard, you reap what you sow. They created an entirely new way to enjoy WoW when they introduced the dungeon finder and it's turning out to be incompatible with the new heroics. People are understandably frustrated because they had found a way of enjoying WoW that worked with their skill level and schedules and for many it's no longer a viable way to play.

Just to preempt those who suggest that "casuals" should just stick to normal dungeons keep in mind that there are only 5 normal dungeons available to lvl 85s and only 3 of those give gear that's better than quest greens. Three relevant dungeons is not enough content for anyone to be satisfied with for any length of time. Clearly the goal was to move people into heroics and beyond and for many it's proving to be a frustrating experience.

I can't imagine how new players must feel after going through the "newer, friendlier leveling experience" and then get into Cataclysm heroics.

 

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heiromancerdrackus 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
TruthyID posted:
Unfortunately for Blizzard, you reap what you sow. They created an entirely new way to enjoy WoW when they introduced the dungeon finder and it's turning out to be incompatible with the new heroics. People are understandably frustrated because they had found a way of enjoying WoW that worked with their skill level and schedules and for many it's no longer a viable way to play.

Just to preempt those who suggest that "casuals" should just stick to normal dungeons keep in mind that there are only 5 normal dungeons available to lvl 85s and only 3 of those give gear that's better than quest greens. Three relevant dungeons is not enough content for anyone to be satisfied with for any length of time. Clearly the goal was to move people into heroics and beyond and for many it's proving to be a frustrating experience.

I can't imagine how new players must feel after going through the "newer, friendlier leveling experience" and then get into Cataclysm heroics.


You don't go from 1-60 and jump into Cataclysm heroics. 80-85 is not a cakewalk. I'm not trying to argue that it is incredibly difficult, just not a cakewalk.

 

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Bremen_Gaheris 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Mithan and TruthyID are right on with their posts. I miss WOTLK and I think it was far more fun than what is in currently. The game sucks now at level 85 even in Normals. It is just not fun anymore....that is the point of the game right?

 

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Blisteringballs 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Has Blizzard announced any broad nerfs, or any at all?

In any event, it was no secret that a sudden increase in challenge and complexity would effect the dungeon finder queues the way they have, greatly reduce participation, and lower the rate at which new runs are generated. People were discussing this back in beta when news and impressions first came leaking out.

I'm glad I've decided to let things take their course, I'll pick it up after the nerfs are implemented, which will improve queue times, and reduce pointless wastes of time in the form of wipes and abandoned runs. I still vividly recall such bleak times from the dark days that were the early Burning Crusade.

I have tried the game a bit at lower levels on a friends account, however, and I'm extremely impressed with that content. Particularly some of the subtle class changes and the goblin starting zone.

 

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-Peo- 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
I go to a restaurant, they serve crab.

Crab is a bitch to eat. After a while, the restaurant starts serving soup, soup is easy to eat. The restaurant starts to do quite well serving soup.

Then, after they become wildly popular, they stop serving soup and start serving crab again.

And when the customers complain, it is the customers fault because they liked soup?

 

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-Peo- 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
-Mithan- posted:
I just hope we don't enter into a situation where Ghostcrawler and Co, will not want to "lose face" and will keep this design going even longer than it should.


This is exactly what will happen. See BM spec, early WotLK.

To the Tee.

 

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kyrv 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
It's amazing to me how many players turn back into noobs when a new game or expansion comes out.

To echo what Gutter said, the players:

1) are not geared

2) have not mastered the instances yet

Gear and experience. Just like the last expansion, and the one before that, and the game when it came out.

Now, as to the players expecting everything on a silver platter and dropping groups like mad, how much is the players and how much fostered by Blizz, that I can't say. I will say, learning new dungeons and bosses i a PUG can be a very much not fun and rewarding experience.

 

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Bowdi 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
but in the end, doesnt everyone pay the same price to play the game?

why not just have everything zerg'able and if you personally want to make it harder, go in with less people and you will have the satisfaction of beating something with just a few people...why should it matter how many people go inside a dungeon? we all pay the same price to play this game...

 

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Subject: Sad players you are.
Interesting.

 

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Bremen_Gaheris 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
kyrv posted:
It's amazing to me how many players turn back into noobs when a new game or expansion comes out.

To echo what Gutter said, the players:

1) are not geared

2) have not mastered the instances yet

Gear and experience. Just like the last expansion, and the one before that, and the game when it came out.

Now, as to the players expecting everything on a silver platter and dropping groups like mad, how much is the players and how much fostered by Blizz, that I can't say. I will say, learning new dungeons and bosses i a PUG can be a very much not fun and rewarding experience.



Really? The instances are not that challenging to be honest. I only needed to do the bosses one time on each Normal I did and frankly I didn't even feel like I needed to look them up. They are all pretty easy.

You know what was a "challenge" in Cata? Fighting my gimp character. When I got to level 80 from level 70 and had replaced all my BC gear with dungeon/quest blues and a few greens (like I am now on my Priest at 85) I felt fine. I was underpowered, had low hps/mana but I could contribute and have fun. A run or two in each level 77+ dungeon was enough to learn the encounters. As I gained gear/item levels, I gained in power and felt tougher and more able to do my job. My healing power scaled with tanks hps and I could keep everyone alive and do my job.

At 85, my Priest feels sluggish and I have to spam the same boring ass, lame, low mana, low output heal just to not go out of mana in a few casts. It is flat out not fun watching your group die as you spam a crappy heal over and over and over again. No amount of gear is going to help change that playstyle they have forced on healers. The mechanics are jacked and I hope they fix them soon.

 

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st0rmie 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Much as I would like to join the OP in bashing bad players, I suspect that the truth is that the people who said they wanted a challenge, and the people who are now crying that it's too hard, are not actually the same people.

 

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st0rmie 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
And furthermore, is the difficulty REALLY that different now?

Is it that much harder than running UBRS or Scholomance with a random gang of level 60 idiots?

Is it that much harder than running heroic Shadow Lab or Shattered Halls as fresh 70s in blues? You know, the instances where the ideal (and in some peoples' minds, only viable) group comp was tank + healer + 3 mages?

Is it that much harder than running heroic Halls of Lightning as fresh 80s in blues? You know, the instance where everyone simply despaired of ever finding a pug that was capable of staying in close on Loken until the nova, then moving out? Or Halls of Reflection in the first weeks of 3.3's release?

I have to say, I'm not finding it so different. Few heroics, couple of raid bosses (Halfus and Magmaw), and yeah, it's hard, but no harder than I expected as blue geared new 85s. Don't have top rep and crafted gear yet. Don't have top enchants and gems freely available yet. Still learning the fights and learning how to play at level 85. It's hard but fair.

 

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Bremen_Gaheris 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
st0rmie posted:
And furthermore, is the difficulty REALLY that different now?

Is it that much harder than running UBRS or Scholomance with a random gang of level 60 idiots?

Is it that much harder than running heroic Shadow Lab or Shattered Halls as fresh 70s in blues? You know, the instances where the ideal (and in some peoples' minds, only viable) group comp was tank + healer + 3 mages?

Is it that much harder than running heroic Halls of Lightning as fresh 80s in blues? You know, the instance where everyone simply despaired of ever finding a pug that was capable of staying in close on Loken until the nova, then moving out? Or Halls of Reflection in the first weeks of 3.3's release?

I have to say, I'm not finding it so different. Few heroics, couple of raid bosses (Halfus and Magmaw), and yeah, it's hard, but no harder than I expected as blue geared new 85s. Don't have top rep and crafted gear yet. Don't have top enchants and gems freely available yet. Still learning the fights and learning how to play at level 85. It's hard but fair.



The "Pro" players will tell you that things are way harder and that they changed lots of things. Honestly, nothing has changed. Same ole tactics, same ole gimmicks, same ole mobs with slightly or same models, and only slightly tweaked bosses.

Things that appear different but aren't: Tanks have massive hp pools but mobs hit harder as a percentage of his hps compared to WOTLK.

DPS levels are almost the exact same numbers-wise as ICC 25 Heroic (ilvl 264-277) geared DPS at 80. This means that DPS are weaker than WOTLK so damage is down in Cata making fights longer.

Healing is pathetic compared to WOTLK so encounters appear FAR harder due to any little mistake by a DPS and they are going down. The popular thing to say is "Well, LOL, let them die so they learn, herpderp." except that if they die you all lose cause you don't have the DPS to finish the pull or boss.

So, the real challenge in Cata is fighting your epicly crappy classes that scaled hideously with levels. Fun...really.

 

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kyrv 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
"Healing is pathetic compared to WOTLK so encounters appear FAR harder due to any little mistake by a DPS and they are going down"


If healing is down and any mistake kills DPS, the encounters appear to be harder because they are harder.

 

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Elkabong08 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
I am following this thread closely. Try getting this much competence and logical discussion on the WoW official boards. I'm certainly listening guys. Mo' dat. Major kiss a** bumpity.......

 

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Auenwing 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Elkabong08 posted:
I am following this thread closely. Try getting this much competence and logical discussion on the WoW official boards. I'm certainly listening guys. Mo' dat. Major kiss a** bumpity.......



Eggnog is definitely OP! grin

 

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Boone-Eldar 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
-Mithan- posted:
Edited by Mith on 12/18/10 5:18 PM (UTC)
Blizzard's tuning isn't so much the issue as the player base, however we have to go with the player base as that is who we are playing with in-game. If I get 4 other good people in a group, I don't care how hard the instance is. However, 9 times out of 10, I end up with 1 or 2 poorer players and we can't finish the instance.

However, let us look at the bigger picture for a minute:

People keep playing when they are making meaningful progress. Take that away or inhibit it, and they get bored, which means they cancel. WoW Classic and TBC had a large number of people cancel months after the "newness" of the expansion wore off and one of the big reasons was lack of progression. For TBC, the one path open to them (Heroics) was too much of a waste of time for most, as it was far to tedious to run 2 hour instances in order to get 3 badges for your loot that cost 100+ badges. WotLK kept people playing longer because it had a progression path open to them (Heroic grinding).

Blizzard made a big mistake here and the end result will be nerfs or cancellations in the summer. They can deny it all they want but in the end, even those who like the harder content, will detest it months down the road when they are grinding and sick of doing the same boring instances over and over again and just want to get it "done".

Of course, those saying "we like the harder content" now, are also the ones that wont be bothering with Heroics because they will be in raids, which makes me wonder why Blizzard even cares about their opinion on the matter in the long run.

Right now, if Blizzard was to tune the trash down a bit, things would be a lot better for groups and "harder bosses" wouldn't be such a big deal because the wipe tolerance for any given group, would be used on the bosses, not the trash as is done now and those of us sick of wasting our time on failed groups, wouldn't be as pissed off.

I just hope we don't enter into a situation where Ghostcrawler and Co, will not want to "lose face" and will keep this design going even longer than it should.


Both the 5 man dungeons and raid dungeons are always overtuned when first introduced. It has been that way since the game came out. They always get nerfed to easy mode after the first initial challenge is there for the ones who care about firsts, guild rankings and the like.

It will be no different in this expansion. Everything that is challenging now will be nerfed into a cake walk within the next couple months.

 

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-Mythril- 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Few random remarks in regards to various points.

The trash numbers have been cut way down when comparing these instances to previous instances.

Consequently the bosses were made a bit harder.

Some of them do run the ragged edge on difficulty based on gear. Many aren't bad at all. Even at the minimum 329 entry level. But once you get your 5 mans carrying ~340 gear, things turn the corner on the harder bosses.


They've done alot of things to encourage guild loyalty and guild involvement. Communication makes things a lot easier on certain bosses. Guild groups make it easier. If you prefer solo play then this will hurt your gaming experience. However WoW does have a build in voice feature that the solo people should learn how to use.

It's ok to realize a certain boss is too hard at current gear level and change instances. If you are trying to do Heroic Grim Batol with 329 gear.. then you should know how that is going to go.

If you buy high level pvp gear to pop your item level up to get into heroics but your true pve item level is down at 320 then you deserve what you get. If you try them on heroic level before learning the fights on normal.. then you should know that you increased the difficulty on the learning curve.

Gem and enchant that 329 gear if you want to increase your advantage to success. Most don't. ( i didnt). The gear was getting replaced too fast to bother. Most don't. But this is a contributing factor to difficulties.

 

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Bremen_Gaheris 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
-Mythril- posted:
It's ok to realize a certain boss is too hard at current gear level and change instances. If you are trying to do Heroic Grim Batol with 329 gear.. then you should know how that is going to go.

If you buy high level pvp gear to pop your item level up to get into heroics but your true pve item level is down at 320 then you deserve what you get. If you try them on heroic level before learning the fights on normal.. then you should know that you increased the difficulty on the learning curve.

Gem and enchant that 329 gear if you want to increase your advantage to success. Most don't. ( i didnt). The gear was getting replaced too fast to bother. Most don't. But this is a contributing factor to difficulties.



I hear this alot on the Official forums and just to clarify my stance and irritation I will reply to the "get better gear" idea. I am not irritated that there is suddenly a challenge in dungeons with cool new mechanics and the need for CC, etc.

What I am irritated about is the complete switch from having a great toolbox full of tools to use when the moment is right to now having 1 tool used 90% of the time (Base Heal) and a toolbox so expensive you can't use any of it on a regular basis.

I realize that once I got 333 overall gear level that Normals would be cake to heal cause my base heal that I spam 90% of the time heals for a lot more. But what is the point when healing is so boring I want to quit (which I have)?

Gear is not the problem, it is a mechanical issue. Once they fix healing so that it is not boring I will quit QQing.

 

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Elkabong08 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Auenwing posted:
Elkabong08 posted:
I am following this thread closely. Try getting this much competence and logical discussion on the WoW official boards. I'm certainly listening guys. Mo' dat. Major kiss a** bumpity.......



Eggnog is definitely OP! grin


Peppermint Patties, actually. Two oz vodka, one oz schnapps, half oz creme de cacao. And, umm, yeah.....OP'ed.

 

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Voqar 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
I tank for guild groups so...go me. But eventually my alts will need groups and I'll have to suffer thru pugs of failures and morons.

What they should do is make a standing or reputation system such that if you complete instances in pugs you gain brownie points, if you get booted or bail, you lose points, and your place in the queue is determined by your standing.

As long as the jerks are allowed to queue and bail with no penalty we'll have to endure disruption.

 

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Zero_Washu 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Leave the challenge to the raiders.

Would be nice that LFD would actually create viable groups, as in CC that will work in the instance. Do not count the tank in this equation, last thing I want to do is root something before the pull.

 

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Ashmaele 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
WoW players want Easy Mode, and Blizzard will oblige, just like they always have.

Case in point: Remember back in the "old days" when there were *gasp* 40-Man Raids? Remember when Blizzard removed those? Remember the reasoning behind it: "It is too hard to get 40 people together to run raids, so we're reducing it to 10- and 25-man raids to be more accommodating to the "casual gamer." Or something along those lines. Despite having far and away the largest subscriber base of any MMO in the history of ever, WoW had to dumb raiding down. I remember Sidi and dragon runs in DAOC where we had 100+ people involved in the raids (and you HAD to have that many in order to beat the content). Yet, the WoW player needed easy, and he/she got it.

The same will be true of these new changes. They'll get nerfed down to where they were during the height of WOTLK popularity and all will be right with the world again.

 

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Boone-Eldar 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Ashmaele posted:
I remember Sidi and dragon runs in DAOC where we had 100+ people involved in the raids (and you HAD to have that many in order to beat the content). Yet, the WoW player needed easy, and he/she got it.



Why would I want to remember the horrid raid/dungeon design that DAoC had? By far the worst PvE I have played.

 

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Ashmaele 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
laugh I'm not saying DAOC was better. It wasn't. I'm saying that when compared to WoW, other games like DAOC left the challenge in far longer than Blizz, whether it was the level grind, raiding, crafting or whatever.

Blizz appeals and caters to the masses, and the masses demand facerolling easy mode, that's the point.

 

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Bowdi 
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but in the end, doesnt everyone pay the same price to play the game?

why not just have everything zerg'able and if you personally want to make it harder, go in with less people and you will have the satisfaction of beating something with just a few people...why should it matter how many people go inside a dungeon? we all pay the same price to play this game...


that is why i posted this above, mostly because i was thinking of DAoC. (Mostly DF named guys) as a challenge we would use 1 group only, but as a fun guild group we would go with 4 or 5 groups. Of course it was much easier, but you know what....we had fun.

 

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Auenwing 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Boone-Eldar posted:
Ashmaele posted:
I remember Sidi and dragon runs in DAOC where we had 100+ people involved in the raids (and you HAD to have that many in order to beat the content). Yet, the WoW player needed easy, and he/she got it.



Why would I want to remember the horrid raid/dungeon design that DAoC had? By far the worst PvE I have played.



Lol! My son and I were just talking last night about the 30-man Sidi run we led. (Gotta love strategic pet spam.) And ML10 with 15 characters (total of 10 players). Those were the days! You can't pull crazy shi* off like that in WoW. I miss that.

cough

I think Blizz needs another layer of 5-man in there beyond what will eventually be nerfed Heroic. I dunno, call it "5-Man Mastery Mode". tongue

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Cawlin posted:
The gear people have right now, which they're using to jump right into heroics is essentially the level 70 green gear and quested blues.
You may be generally close to the mark regarding BC heroics fresh after BC went live, though I don't recall ever wiping frequently on _normal_ dungeons in BC or WotLK like we are in Cata. That seems to indicate a significant increase in gear-check optimization for this expansion.

By gear-check what I mean is, they gave everything nasty AoE so everyone has to move all the time, bumped up damage output overall, nerfed tank avoidance (especially block) and nerfed healing, all in the same build (4.0.x). I think the result points to more than simply lacking gear.

 

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OldBitterCraig 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
-Peo- posted:
I go to a restaurant, they serve crab.

Crab is a bitch to eat. After a while, the restaurant starts serving soup, soup is easy to eat. The restaurant starts to do quite well serving soup.

Then, after they become wildly popular, they stop serving soup and start serving crab again.

And when the customers complain, it is the customers fault because they liked soup?




NO SOUP! NO SOUP FOR YOU! COME BACK ONE EXPANSION!

 

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Broken_Kayfabe 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Bowdi posted:
why not just have everything zerg'able and if you personally want to make it harder, go in with less people and you will have the satisfaction of beating something with just a few people...why should it matter how many people go inside a dungeon? we all pay the same price to play this game...


Yep, that's the way to do it if you're going to have a static amount of loot drop from the mob. Want to take 72 people to down something? Feel free, but have fun trying to gear up when you're up against ten other people for the same class specific item. Or thirty for a role specific one. Meanwhile the groups doing it with thirty are finishing up their gearing process more than twice as fast.

Raid limits came because the servers were having trouble handling the load, but the freedom was still better before devs like Blizzard got obsessed with controlling everything the players did.

 

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Cawlin 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
Cawlin posted:
The gear people have right now, which they're using to jump right into heroics is essentially the level 70 green gear and quested blues.
You may be generally close to the mark regarding BC heroics fresh after BC went live, though I don't recall ever wiping frequently on _normal_ dungeons in BC or WotLK like we are in Cata. That seems to indicate a significant increase in gear-check optimization for this expansion.

By gear-check what I mean is, they gave everything nasty AoE so everyone has to move all the time, bumped up damage output overall, nerfed tank avoidance (especially block) and nerfed healing, all in the same build (4.0.x). I think the result points to more than simply lacking gear.


WOW, frequent wipes are happening in NORMAL dungeons? Sheesh I had no idea. Damn, I've got to get my character leveled. I've basically not been able to find the time, nor muster the desire to log in since making level 81 that first night back from vacation... don't see much happening until after the first of the year either... sad

Sorry man, if wipes are happening in normal mode dungeons, then I guess gear isn't a big part of the equation. It would seem difficulty notching up along with L2P issues are creating that level of havoc.

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Cawlin posted:
WOW, frequent wipes are happening in NORMAL dungeons? Sheesh I had no idea. Damn, I've got to get my character leveled. I've basically not been able to find the time, nor muster the desire to log in since making level 81 that first night back from vacation... don't see much happening until after the first of the year either... sad

Sorry man, if wipes are happening in normal mode dungeons, then I guess gear isn't a big part of the equation. It would seem difficulty notching up along with L2P issues are creating that level of havoc.

My group being all melee is a peculiar case to be sure but we never had anywhere near this much trouble even on tougher anti-melee fights in previous expansions. /shrug

And based on what I'm seeing in the occasional PuG, things just aren't as forgiving regardless of people having 5 times the health pools.

 

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Cawlin 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
My group being all melee is a peculiar case to be sure but we never had anywhere near this much trouble even on tougher anti-melee fights in previous expansions. /shrug

And based on what I'm seeing in the occasional PuG, things just aren't as forgiving regardless of people having 5 times the health pools.



Is your melee group's idea of CC "The 3 of us will each just offtank the extra mobs?"

That seemed to be the prevailing strategy for melee players during WOTLK: "Sure I know I charged/DGed/Ambushed/jacked my biggest opening burst attack into this mob well before you could even touch it Tank, but I'll just DPS tank this one myself, besides, it helps my DPS when I can do my rotation and not have everyone else kill the mob before I get through a cycle of abilities!"

 

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-MrBean- 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Cawlin posted:
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
My group being all melee is a peculiar case to be sure but we never had anywhere near this much trouble even on tougher anti-melee fights in previous expansions. /shrug

And based on what I'm seeing in the occasional PuG, things just aren't as forgiving regardless of people having 5 times the health pools.



Is your melee group's idea of CC "The 3 of us will each just offtank the extra mobs?"

That seemed to be the prevailing strategy for melee players during WOTLK: "Sure I know I charged/DGed/Ambushed/jacked my biggest opening burst attack into this mob well before you could even touch it Tank, but I'll just DPS tank this one myself, besides, it helps my DPS when I can do my rotation and not have everyone else kill the mob before I get through a cycle of abilities!"


Cawlin,

I love how you just keep talking crap that everyone are huge CF's that don't know how to CC, yet aren't even playing to see for yourself.

Rather than just ragging on every poster that is actually doing the content and saying it's not right, you just read what they post and think to yourself in a smug manner that "YOU will do it better."

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
-MrBean- posted:
Cawlin posted:
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
My group being all melee is a peculiar case to be sure but we never had anywhere near this much trouble even on tougher anti-melee fights in previous expansions. /shrug

And based on what I'm seeing in the occasional PuG, things just aren't as forgiving regardless of people having 5 times the health pools.



Is your melee group's idea of CC "The 3 of us will each just offtank the extra mobs?"

That seemed to be the prevailing strategy for melee players during WOTLK: "Sure I know I charged/DGed/Ambushed/jacked my biggest opening burst attack into this mob well before you could even touch it Tank, but I'll just DPS tank this one myself, besides, it helps my DPS when I can do my rotation and not have everyone else kill the mob before I get through a cycle of abilities!"


Cawlin,

I love how you just keep talking crap that everyone are huge CF's that don't know how to CC, yet aren't even playing to see for yourself.

Rather than just ragging on every poster that is actually doing the content and saying it's not right, you just read what they post and think to yourself in a smug manner that "YOU will do it better."


How does him making a comment about accurate observations he made during WotLK have to do with him being unsubscribed right now? That's pretty much how I remember heroics in Wrath and I only ever ran them with friends back then. The problem being that you could have a dps off-tank them and not have any fear of wiping the group.

 

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-MrBean- 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Quazimortal posted:

How does him making a comment about accurate observations he made during WotLK have to do with him being unsubscribed right now? That's pretty much how I remember heroics in Wrath and I only ever ran them with friends back then. The problem being that you could have a dps off-tank them and not have any fear of wiping the group.


Sorry quoted the wrong post of his... was thinking more along the lines of this:


Cawlin posted:
Sorry man, if wipes are happening in normal mode dungeons, then I guess gear isn't a big part of the equation. It would seem difficulty notching up along with L2P issues are creating that level of havoc.



The L2P issues is quite condescending considering he has no clue what people truly are bitching about.

There just honesty seems to be random damage coming out in dungeons. Point in fact:

Last night I was healing a Halls of Origination normal dungeon. It was me (Pally Healer), Pally Tank, Mage, Warlock and cat druid. Through the first couple of battles other than the tank I notice I am having to throw more heals at the mage than anyone else. The mage knew what he was doing, hell he started sheeping without us even having to say anything.

So as I healed the group I started to watch him to see where he was getting the aggro from. It was from nowhere. No melee on him, no adds, no ranged or even spell casters. Just random damage being taken by him. It's rather annoying when I don't have a HoT to throw on him other than one that takes up a whole sixth of my mana to heal the entire group.

 

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Cawlin 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
-MrBean- posted:
Quazimortal posted:

How does him making a comment about accurate observations he made during WotLK have to do with him being unsubscribed right now? That's pretty much how I remember heroics in Wrath and I only ever ran them with friends back then. The problem being that you could have a dps off-tank them and not have any fear of wiping the group.


Sorry quoted the wrong post of his... was thinking more along the lines of this:


Cawlin posted:
Sorry man, if wipes are happening in normal mode dungeons, then I guess gear isn't a big part of the equation. It would seem difficulty notching up along with L2P issues are creating that level of havoc.



The L2P issues is quite condescending considering he has no clue what people truly are bitching about.

There just honesty seems to be random damage coming out in dungeons. Point in fact:

Last night I was healing a Halls of Origination normal dungeon. It was me (Pally Healer), Pally Tank, Mage, Warlock and cat druid. Through the first couple of battles other than the tank I notice I am having to throw more heals at the mage than anyone else. The mage knew what he was doing, hell he started sheeping without us even having to say anything.

So as I healed the group I started to watch him to see where he was getting the aggro from. It was from nowhere. No melee on him, no adds, no ranged or even spell casters. Just random damage being taken by him. It's rather annoying when I don't have a HoT to throw on him other than one that takes up a whole sixth of my mana to heal the entire group.


Don't get your panties all wadded up there Nancy.

For starters, go and look at the mobs in the dungeon you were in and look at their ranged attacks.

http://www.wowhead.com/zone=4945/halls-of-origination#npcs

Understand that mobs with ranged attacks will often use them on their second most hated target even while they're being tanked in melee range, or often will use them on a random ranged target, again, even while they're being tanked in melee range. This mechanic has been in the game since the beginning. There's not likely any "random" damage just happening out of nowhere. In fact you could have checked recount to see what the source of the damage on the mage was if you were curious.

As for your whining over my citing "L2P issues", get the fk over it. Read the hundreds of posts around here from others elaborating all the L2P failures in the dungeons.

Oh and L2P yourself.

 

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steveC91 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
GutterSludge posted:
It's only been a week and a half...




This

Part of me wishes I had more time to play and the other part is glad I don't.

 

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Subject: Sad players you are.
Again, it is an issue with the player base, not Blizzard, but the player base is who we play with and thus the lowest common denominator is what determines the overall success here for everybody.

Perhaps blizzard needs to introduce some other Rating system to factor into the LFG system. I don't know. What I do know is that I am SICK of failed groups.

this..so much... angry

 

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Hey idiot, if you pull your pants up it wont look like you $hit them, and you wont have to walk like you have a broom shoved up yer ass!
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Elkabong08 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Cawlin posted:
Ugh_Lancelot posted:
My group being all melee is a peculiar case to be sure but we never had anywhere near this much trouble even on tougher anti-melee fights in previous expansions. /shrug

And based on what I'm seeing in the occasional PuG, things just aren't as forgiving regardless of people having 5 times the health pools.



Is your melee group's idea of CC "The 3 of us will each just offtank the extra mobs?"

That seemed to be the prevailing strategy for melee players during WOTLK: "Sure I know I charged/DGed/Ambushed/jacked my biggest opening burst attack into this mob well before you could even touch it Tank, but I'll just DPS tank this one myself, besides, it helps my DPS when I can do my rotation and not have everyone else kill the mob before I get through a cycle of abilities!"


Lol, the Rogue mantra happy . Fortunately, some of us learned how to maximize our DPS just short of pulling aggro off the tank (early days of Karazhan for me), threat meters ftw.

A lot of us will adjust and go back to the days of "pulling aggro = bad, duh". The issue for me will be whether enough of the player base learns this well enough to ever use LFD again.

 

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Thodoll 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
I'm having fun so far. I'm worried about messing up, which is refreshing in a way.

 

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Outside is fun. You should try it.
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steveC91 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
PlieBrac posted:
Again, it is an issue with the player base, not Blizzard, but the player base is who we play with and thus the lowest common denominator is what determines the overall success here for everybody.

Perhaps blizzard needs to introduce some other Rating system to factor into the LFG system. I don't know. What I do know is that I am SICK of failed groups.

this..so much... angry


There is another option its called a Guild run ofc it don’t guarantee no wipes but al least you can die and laugh with friends.
Tbh I like pugs even the bad runs can be fun and you sometimes meet players you like.
I dislike the xrealm part of it though.

 

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In the heat and the rain,
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To see him fly.
So many die.
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Blisteringballs 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
It's not an issue with the playerbase. They will bear whatever burden Blizzard designs to a point. When that point is reached casual players leave, and they're the overwhelming majority. And since it's already being largely recognized as a burden, it's clearly not fun. And that's what WoW was to most casuals prior to Cataclysm: fun. Now all these new casuals are being directed to basement dwelling nerd sites they never heard of and being asked to study video tutorials when they have real lives and jobs to attend to. It's laughable really.

Blizzard has a model right now that's unsustainable given the way they have essentially trained their playerbase over the past two years. Grueling two hour runs for minimal rewards, if any? If you even finish before the group dissolves? Longer LFD waits to end up in a run-in-progress? With punitive effects for most (large repair bills)? It's not 2004 anymore. This cannot last, and it won't for much longer.

 

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Unstruck 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Blisteringballs posted:
It's not an issue with the playerbase. They will bear whatever burden Blizzard designs to a point. When that point is reached casual players leave, and they're the overwhelming majority. And since it's already being largely recognized as a burden, it's clearly not fun. And that's what WoW was to most casuals prior to Cataclysm: fun. Now all these new casuals are being directed to basement dwelling nerd sites they never heard of and being asked to study video tutorials when they have real lives and jobs to attend to. It's laughable really.

Blizzard has a model right now that's unsustainable given the way they have essentially trained their playerbase over the past two years. Grueling two hour runs for minimal rewards, if any? If you even finish before the group dissolves? Longer LFD waits to end up in a run-in-progress? With punitive effects for most (large repair bills)? It's not 2004 anymore. This cannot last, and it won't for much longer.


Makes you wonder WHY they're doing it, too. They know how well their business model is working, why change it now to drive off more casual gamers? There has to be a monetary reason for it. We'll find out soon enough.

 

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Blisteringballs 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Unstruck posted:
Blisteringballs posted:
It's not an issue with the playerbase. They will bear whatever burden Blizzard designs to a point. When that point is reached casual players leave, and they're the overwhelming majority. And since it's already being largely recognized as a burden, it's clearly not fun. And that's what WoW was to most casuals prior to Cataclysm: fun. Now all these new casuals are being directed to basement dwelling nerd sites they never heard of and being asked to study video tutorials when they have real lives and jobs to attend to. It's laughable really.

Blizzard has a model right now that's unsustainable given the way they have essentially trained their playerbase over the past two years. Grueling two hour runs for minimal rewards, if any? If you even finish before the group dissolves? Longer LFD waits to end up in a run-in-progress? With punitive effects for most (large repair bills)? It's not 2004 anymore. This cannot last, and it won't for much longer.


Makes you wonder WHY they're doing it, too. They know how well their business model is working, why change it now to drive off more casual gamers? There has to be a monetary reason for it. We'll find out soon enough.


My guess is management and higher level designers giving too much freedom to idealistic team leaders and the like. People that aren't able to see the forest for the trees.

 

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jojo263 
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Subject: Sad players you are.
Blizzard is going to do whatever it takes to make the ques go as fast as possible. So enjoy the CC or whatever you have been doing since release.

On another note hardcore raiding is done and blizzard should have dumped it a long time ago and put in more work on 5mans and bg's, the next mmo that has a chance at even getting next to WoW will be one that has tons content for people to do in small groups.

 

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