A tank?s job is to protect the group. A big part of that is controlling the enemy. A big part of controlling the enemy is staying alive. Tanks have a lot of tools to stay alive, and mastering those is a major component of learning to play a tank. On the other hand, some of these tools are on long cooldowns, and on some encounters they are intended for use at specific moments in the fight. Furthermore, staying alive isn?t the sole responsibility of the tank, because there will always be one or more healers present whose job it is to keep the tank alive. As such, staying alive can?t be the only thing tanks have to focus on.

So, let?s back up a moment to controlling the enemy. ?Control? includes things like positioning the boss, or doing specific things at specific times, such as swapping with an off tank. It also includes making sure the boss doesn?t attack anyone else. That?s where threat generation comes into play.

If threat generation is too easy then the entire risk of the encounter drops. Newsflash: we don?t actually want encounters to be easy. We want encounters to be fun, and for most players, that includes both rewards and risks.

We want tanks to care about the buttons they hit instead of just relying on auto-attacking to control their target. We don?t necessarily want very complicated tank DPS rotations, because as I mentioned above, tanks do have other things to keep track of. But we want their combat abilities to be engaging. Good tanks should be those who control, survive, and generate sufficient threat.

On the other hand, when threat is too hard to maintain, it can be exasperating. Tanks get understandably frustrated when the game is asking them to do something but not giving them the tools to do it. The non-tanks in the group also become frustrated, because they feel throttled. It?s one thing when overcoming the boss is challenging. It feels worse when you know that another player is standing in your way, keeping you from achieving your top performance.

We don?t usually want DPS classes to have to stop attacking in order to keep from generating too much threat. We do want players to pay attention. We don?t think it?s too much to ask for DPS and healers to wait a couple of GCDs for the tank to get the enemy under control -- we?re not asking for five stacks of Sunder Armor these days. What we really mean by proper threat management is knowing things like when it?s time to go all out, when it?s appropriate to use a threat-reducing cooldown, and most importantly, which is the right target to be attacking. I?m not trying to bash pugs here, but I am amazed at how often a nuker will pick a random target instead of the one being tanked, then blame the tank for not holding aggro (and then blame the healer when they die). In short, if threat is too easy, the game is boring. If threat is too difficult, the game is frustrating.

How then do you guys (and the developers!) know when threat is a problem? Here are some handy guidelines.

-- If a tank is trying to generate threat on a single target, and it runs off to kill a DPS class, that?s a problem.

-- If a tank is trying to generate area threat on a group, and the tanked things are running off to kill healers, that?s a problem.

-- If Vengeance falling off causes the tank to lose threat, that?s a problem.

These problems can have a couple of causes. It could be a problem we caused, meaning that even an expertly-played tank has low threat generation because our numbers are undertuned. Or it could be that only an expertly-played tank can generate threat because you?re asked to manage too many abilities. Or it could be that Vengeance is the only thing allowing you to generate enough threat because the size of the buff is masking low threat generation from your abilities. It could also be a problem you need to fix on your end: if someone is nuking or cleaving a random target on a group pull instead of assisting the tank, that?s not the tank?s fault.

Now, there are things we don?t like about threat as a mechanic. It?s fairly gamey as game mechanics go and we think there are probably better ways to communicate it to players. There are some mods that do a very credible job given the limited information we provide, but overall we?d like to present threat better since we?re asking you to take it seriously in the PvE game.

--Syrus-- posted:

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Huh? We know all this.

If there was ever example of saying so many things with out saying anything at all, this would be it.

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Cawlin posted:

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Sometimes posts like this from GC are actually good because the discussion needs to be re-centered.

See, everything GC stated above is fairly common knowledge to anyone who has ever even half-heartedly researched their class for group play. Unfortunately, the percentage of people playing wow who have done that is on the order of 20% or less.

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Elkabong08 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Sometimes posts like this from GC are actually good because the discussion needs to be re-centered.

See, everything GC stated above is fairly common knowledge to anyone who has ever even half-heartedly researched their class for group play. Unfortunately, the percentage of people playing wow who have done that is on the order of 20% or less.

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Ok, I'm getting scared now. My WoW experience up to now has been "sheltered". I was in a small, close knit guild and almost never grouped outside of guild. I skipped WotLK almost entirely, left the game for almost two years. In the mean time, my guild broke up and now it's just me and one or two other buddies still playing. Is it really that bad out there? Does the player base really not have a handle on the most rudimentary aspects of game play, as GC's (and Cawlin's) posts would indicate? Looks like I need to find a decent guild, post haste.

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Cawlin posted:

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Elkabong08 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Sometimes posts like this from GC are actually good because the discussion needs to be re-centered.

See, everything GC stated above is fairly common knowledge to anyone who has ever even half-heartedly researched their class for group play. Unfortunately, the percentage of people playing wow who have done that is on the order of 20% or less.

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Ok, I'm getting scared now. My WoW experience up to now has been "sheltered". I was in a small, close knit guild and almost never grouped outside of guild. I skipped WotLK almost entirely, left the game for almost two years. In the mean time, my guild broke up and now it's just me and one or two other buddies still playing. Is it really that bad out there? Does the player base really not have a handle on the most rudimentary aspects of game play, as GC's (and Cawlin's) posts would indicate? Looks like I need to find a decent guild, post haste.

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It's not just my posts. Read some of the threads around here about heailng and you will see how many people around here are finding out how FEW people know how to play the game.

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Arunne posted:

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I think what you're missing here since you didnt play Lich King is that the game went AOE crazy. Tanks could press 2 buttons, and control 10 mobs. Then the DPS in the group went balls to the wall on the DPS on every pull. Meanwhile the healer would occasionaly cast a heal here and there.

What GC is doing now is trying to train the people who only played/raided during WOTLK how to play the newer/better/harder wow that doesnt encourage massive AOE pulls and makes healers go OOM on trash pulls if you dont CC certain mobs.

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-Mithan- posted:

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I don't think threat is the issue.  To me, the issue is the difficulty and the "tricks" surrounding Trash.

For example, after the first boss in Grim Batol, the golems cast Quake.  Apparently you are supposed to jump to get out of it.  Well, miss your jump and the group usually wipes.

I could give more examples, but what is the point?


The point is, that once you DO get to a boss, you are so pissed off with previous deaths that after 2 or 3 shots, the group calls it quits and that is that. 


I like the harder boss fights, but the trash leading up to them need to be nerfed. 

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Vault_News posted:

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On the other hand, when threat is too hard to maintain, it can be exasperating. Tanks get understandably frustrated when the game is asking them to do something but not giving them the tools to do it. The non-tanks in the group also become frustrated, because they feel throttled. It?s one thing when overcoming the boss is challenging. It feels worse when you know that another player is standing in your way, keeping you from achieving your top performance.

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Elkabong08 posted:

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Arunne posted:

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I think what you're missing here since you didnt play Lich King is that the game went AOE crazy. Tanks could press 2 buttons, and control 10 mobs. Then the DPS in the group went balls to the wall on the DPS on every pull. Meanwhile the healer would occasionaly cast a heal here and there.

What GC is doing now is trying to train the people who only played/raided during WOTLK how to play the newer/better/harder wow that doesnt encourage massive AOE pulls and makes healers go OOM on trash pulls if you dont CC certain mobs.

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Yeah, I get that too....I did a couple of WotLK dungeons when I came back and it was like the whole group had ADHD. Still.....How many new subsribers did WotLK bring in? It sounds as if this issue is not limited to a handful of new subscibers over the last year or two, but includes a large segment of the player base. What about the other millions of players that played vanilla and BC? Did they all forget how to play their class over the last year or so, or was it always this way and I never realized it because I was so guild centric? Or did Blizzard just unintentionally teach almost everyone crappy gaming skills with their design in LK?

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slythetove posted:

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Vault_News posted:

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On the other hand, when threat is too hard to maintain, it can be exasperating. Tanks get understandably frustrated when the game is asking them to do something but not giving them the tools to do it. The non-tanks in the group also become frustrated, because they feel throttled. It?s one thing when overcoming the boss is challenging. It feels worse when you know that another player is standing in your way, keeping you from achieving your top performance.

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Replace "threat" with "healing" and "Tank/s" with "healer" and you see exactly the situation they created with healing.

So, they care about tanks not being throttled by their group or exasperated, and want them to have tools to do their job, but healers can suck it.

I never really listened to the hatewagon for this guy before, but I'm starting to.

--Sly

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Cawlin posted:

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In the interest of fairness I will say that the tank has traditionally been the rate limiter for groups. Tanks have always had the most stringent gear requirements, the most critical rotation/skill choice decisions to make, etc. That persisted through Vanilla, BC, and the first 1/3rd or so of WOTLK.

Once people start to L2P, the pressure will be lessened for healers who have indeed had their fair share of it all along but not MORE than their fair share as tanks have had. When that pressure is reduced for healers, the pressure will again be on the tanks' shoulders.

That said, again, I do sympathize with the frustration of trying to get the troglodytes to actually at least meet "cretin" status.

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slythetove posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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In the interest of fairness I will say that the tank has traditionally been the rate limiter for groups. Tanks have always had the most stringent gear requirements, the most critical rotation/skill choice decisions to make, etc. That persisted through Vanilla, BC, and the first 1/3rd or so of WOTLK.

Once people start to L2P, the pressure will be lessened for healers who have indeed had their fair share of it all along but not MORE than their fair share as tanks have had. When that pressure is reduced for healers, the pressure will again be on the tanks' shoulders.

That said, again, I do sympathize with the frustration of trying to get the troglodytes to actually at least meet "cretin" status.

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I've tanked with every class, and of course I agree that the tank has always been the one in charge of how the flow goes. Actually, that's part of the problem right now.

Tanks are not standing up for their healers in randoms. They aren't looking to see if they have mana, and they aren't telling the DPS to stop doing stupid crap and yelling at the healer for no reason. In fact, tanks are doing stupid crap and yelling at the healers too.

When I tank, my healer is my first concern. I will do everything possible including die to prevent their death.

When I heal, my tank is my first concern. I will do everything possible including die to prevent their death.

When I DPS doing damage and avoiding taking damage, and the survival of my healer are my concerns. I will do everything possible including die to prevent a healer death.

Currently, nobody gives a crap about healers because they think healers are at fault for letting the group die. Everyone wants to go go go, and since the healer is the one asking them to slow down it's all their fault. It's pathetic.

--Sly

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Cawlin posted:

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slythetove posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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In the interest of fairness I will say that the tank has traditionally been the rate limiter for groups. Tanks have always had the most stringent gear requirements, the most critical rotation/skill choice decisions to make, etc. That persisted through Vanilla, BC, and the first 1/3rd or so of WOTLK.

Once people start to L2P, the pressure will be lessened for healers who have indeed had their fair share of it all along but not MORE than their fair share as tanks have had. When that pressure is reduced for healers, the pressure will again be on the tanks' shoulders.

That said, again, I do sympathize with the frustration of trying to get the troglodytes to actually at least meet "cretin" status.

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I've tanked with every class, and of course I agree that the tank has always been the one in charge of how the flow goes. Actually, that's part of the problem right now.

Tanks are not standing up for their healers in randoms. They aren't looking to see if they have mana, and they aren't telling the DPS to stop doing stupid crap and yelling at the healer for no reason. In fact, tanks are doing stupid crap and yelling at the healers too.

When I tank, my healer is my first concern. I will do everything possible including die to prevent their death.

When I heal, my tank is my first concern. I will do everything possible including die to prevent their death.

When I DPS doing damage and avoiding taking damage, and the survival of my healer are my concerns. I will do everything possible including die to prevent a healer death.

Currently, nobody gives a crap about healers because they think healers are at fault for letting the group die. Everyone wants to go go go, and since the healer is the one asking them to slow down it's all their fault. It's pathetic.

--Sly

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Well I hear you and without having experienced it myself, I believe you. All I'm trying to say is that you should just let them rot with their misconceptions until they L2P.

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Cawlin posted:

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Well I hear you and without having experienced it myself, I believe you. All I'm trying to say is that you should just let them rot with their misconceptions until they L2P.

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Arunne posted:

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I think what you're missing here since you didnt play Lich King is that the game went AOE crazy. Tanks could press 2 buttons, and control 10 mobs. Then the DPS in the group went balls to the wall on the DPS on every pull. Meanwhile the healer would occasionaly cast a heal here and there.

What GC is doing now is trying to train the people who only played/raided during WOTLK how to play the newer/better/harder wow that doesnt encourage massive AOE pulls and makes healers go OOM on trash pulls if you dont CC certain mobs.


Edit - These were directed at what Elkabong08 was saying/asking

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GutterSludge posted:

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Huh? We know all this.

If there was ever example of saying so many things with out saying anything at all, this would be it.

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QFT

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loztpassword posted:

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*note* None of this applies to you if you play in a dedicated guild and only group with dedicated guildies. You most likely already are able to experience "teamwork". You most likely have no problems using CC in groups because you have DPS that know how to do it... along with tanks/healers/other DPS that will allow it and won't call him a "terribad" and /kick him because his DPS dips slightly when CCing. For you my friend, the "challenging" new dungeon mechanics are not that bad and easily overcome. Feel free to ignore.This guy (GC) is a babbling idiot.


The rest of you can read on----
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What is amusing is that they (Blizz) are overcomplicating things as they try to fix the debacle that Lich King expansion created.

It's not just LK players that are woefully incapable of playing their class to it's fullest potential, particularly DPS classes who are by far the laziest and worst offenders. But it's also WoW players who've been around since Vanilla and/or BC.



Many of the players that were incompetent, and let's face it that is about 75% of the playerbase due to WoW not being a game that requires much competence to reach level cap, were able to reach new heights in LK due to the overly easy AE-fest mechanics Blizz PUSHED.

Couple that with the LFG dungeon-finder, and you created a recipe for complete dumbing down of group mechanics.

Now, they are trying to wind back the clock. It just won't work. There is a saying that once they've seen the city, you can't keep them down on the farm. That is what Blizz is dealing with now.

It's not "threat" that is the problem, GC. It's that you have far too many players that have become accustomed to EZ-play. And if you ever, EVER try to make the dungeons require thought again... if you EVER ask a DPS to do something besides spam the DPS button.... or ask a healer to intelligently decide which spells to use and on whom to use them... all you will get is death-threats and hatemail bro.

This will all go away when enough PuG players have top tier gear again, and can therefore ignore the "challenging" mechanics to once again AE-fest.

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Auenwing posted:

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loztpassword, nice post.


What I'm hearing GC say is:

/footstomp

You stupid customers! If you would JUST shut up and play OUR game the way WE want you to, then I wouldn't be hearing doubt over the new changes!

/glare


Sorry, that was the kindest way I could say that.

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GutterSludge posted:

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Huh? We know all this.

If there was ever example of saying so many things with out saying anything at all, this would be it.

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QFT

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