Author Topic: Primary vs. Secondary Stats or: What Happened to All the Agi/Spirit Gear?
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Subject: Primary vs. Secondary Stats or: What Happened to All the Agi/Spirit Gear?
Ghostcrawler posted:
When we itemize armor and weapons, we nearly always give them a set amount of Stamina and a set amount of Strength, Agility, or Intellect. We call these the primary stats. The secondary stats include haste, dodge, crit, and mastery, as well as stats with cap targets, like hit and expertise. I'll discuss those, as well as Spirit, a little later.

We?ve seen a lot of players crunch the math and come to the conclusion that, for example, Strength is much better for them than haste. This is intentional. We want to know that you have enough health, attack power, or spell power to be competitive at your level of content. When you think about it, it also rarely affects gearing decisions. You're never really choosing between gloves with Strength on them versus gloves with haste on them. (At least at max level. We have a little more fun with the lower level quest rewards.) Likewise, you are rarely making decisions about whether to enchant something with Agi vs. crit. Now, you can choose to reforge items to decrease an undesirable stat, though you can?t remove it completely. You can also choose to socket all Str, Agi, Stam, or Int gems. However, socket bonuses are stronger in Cataclysm, so you might want to use orange, purple, or green gems instead, and hopefully the secondary stat on those gems becomes an interesting choice.

We hope that secondary stats overall are just more interesting than the primaries. While Strength or Agility will make you always hit a little harder, critical strike rating makes you sometimes hit a lot harder. Haste lets you do more (whether its providing resources for melee or speeding up caster spells). Mastery makes you better at what you do. We want your choice of secondary start to mix up your playstyle, if only a little. Unlike primary stats, we want those secondary stats to be a choice. If one is far better or far worse than the others, then we haven't delivered on our design intent. Since some of our players have become such great rules lawyers, I am hesitant to mention a magic number at which point the ratios become unacceptable to us. Let?s just say you shouldn't often be in a situation where you pass on an item in a later tier of content and keep an item from an earlier tier solely because of the stat allocation. As an example, if haste were so much better than crit for an Enhance shaman that he kept his Blackwing Descent (first tier) gear and dismissed all of the Firelands (second tier) loot as garbage simply because it had a lot of crit, then we have a problem. (We're less offended if great trinkets or set bonuses sometimes outlive their tier.)

There are some exceptions. Hit and expertise have real caps so it's intended that they are very good up until their caps. It's a longer discussion than I can fit in this blog, but we like how cappable stats affect the gearing decision -- the puzzle of which gems to use or how to reforge is often played because you want to hit that hit number without going over. Likewise, Spirit is the kind of stat that healers will only need "enough" of, and once they feel comfortable with their mana regen, additional Spirit will be less attractive than other secondary stats. (This sort of thing also depends a lot on the encounter mind you.) Mastery is a new stat for us, and while it's working great for some talent specs, we'll almost certainly have to tweak it for others in a future patch (Unholy and Retribution come to mind, because their masteries currently affect sources of damage that just aren't large enough to be competitive).

One additional point worth mentioning: we don't design every item to be perfect. While we try to avoid actual booby prizes (I?m looking at you, Vendorstrike), we definitely go out of our way to make some items more highly optimized than others. If you knew every loot drop was certain to be an upgrade, then there isn't much reason to have stats on equipment at all -- you could just reduce everything to "power" that scales with item level. It's quite intentional for example that Ashkandi 2.0 has a very generous weapon speed.

Looking to the future (beyond Cataclysm), primary stats are the kind of thing we might mess with some more. We?d dearly love to be able to offer you the choice of Agility versus haste without the former being a no-brainer. We?d have to change a lot of the combat formulae (such as how much attack power you gain from Strength or Agi) to increase the relative attractiveness of the secondary stats. However, that kind of overhaul might be worth it in the name of offering more interesting itemization choices. Items are one of the very few rewards we have to offer max-level characters, and we constantly struggle to make sure they are in fact rewarding without becoming too predictable.


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Malachi256 
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Subject: Primary vs. Secondary Stats or: What Happened to All the Agi/Spirit Gear?
As long as the roles we play in PvE continue to be fairly one-dimensional, then the gear choices behind those roles will also be one-dimensional. There will be sites like E.J. that pretty much tells you, "if you're a marks hunter, then you should get stats A, B, and C in that priority order, with stat D always at max but not over." Anything other than that results in reduced effectiveness of your dps (because that's all you do). /yawn!

It's one of the reasons I really like PvP - stat choices truly are choices that reflect your own particular style of play (and this is more prevalent in a BG environment - I'm sure the choices are less in competitive arenas where you don't have as much freedom to be a special snowflake). If I want to go for maximum burst, I'll go for damage and crit stats. If I want to maximize my tactical abilities, I might go for haste so that I can beat other casters to the punch on important tactical spells. If I want survivability I'll go for stamina and resilience. So many viable options.

For example, some time back in early WotLK, I was playing around with an arcane mage PvP setup that was basically "stack as much int as possible." It was an all around stat that gave me so-so offensive abilities, gave me almost unlimited mana, and it also doubled as very effective hitpoints (during WotLK, a mage could spam mana shield... basically giving him an effective HP of 40-50+k in panic situations). I've always been a bit of a survivalist, and I thought this build was kinda fun.

 

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Spookysheep 
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Subject: Primary vs. Secondary Stats or: What Happened to All the Agi/Spirit Gear?
I don't think I have ever read a post from Ghostcrawler that was not all about "what we at blizzard like" and "FU players, we are not asking you what you like!"

 

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Elmador_MoK 
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Subject: Primary vs. Secondary Stats or: What Happened to All the Agi/Spirit Gear?
Spookysheep posted:
I don't think I have ever read a post from Ghostcrawler that was not all about "what we at blizzard like" and "FU players, we are not asking you what you like!"


He would have to post one first for you to be able to read it.

 

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--Syrus-- 
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Subject: Primary vs. Secondary Stats or: What Happened to All the Agi/Spirit Gear?
Can someone coles notes this for me? Sheesh, and some people call us over at VN long winded. I'm surprised GS doesn't post here... or does he?

 

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Elmador_MoK 
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Subject: Primary vs. Secondary Stats or: What Happened to All the Agi/Spirit Gear?
--Syrus-- posted:
Can someone coles notes this for me? Sheesh, and some people call us over at VN long winded. I'm surprised GS doesn't post here... or does he?


Ghostcrawler posted:
I do what I want!



Secondary stats (especially Mastery) aren't perfect and they don't care, in a Wall of Text so much more epic than any loot I have seen in Cata yet.

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Subject: Primary vs. Secondary Stats or: What Happened to All the Agi/Spirit Gear?
Is it just me, or does GC not understand stat stacking as they have implemented it?

 

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