Talehon69 posted:

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You can still get the mount, it just doesn't give free 310%.

As for the problem, if you're unhappy in your guild why stay? There are plenty of guilds around.

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PallyDog posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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You expect real life, business type responsibility, from people playing a game....

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Cawlin posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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You expect real life, business type responsibility, from people playing a game....

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Wrong. She expected common courtesy from people who play a game, from people who verbally committed to the effort. The only misnomer in that situation is that courtesy from people playing THIS game is not at all common.

Sorry Pally.

For those of you who don't understand, Pally's story is an example of the difference between "progression" minded guilds and "casual" guilds. For those of you who think like Gutter, the story is an example of why the "elite" guilds don't want your casual asses.

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siujoey posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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You expect real life, business type responsibility, from people playing a game....

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Wrong. She expected common courtesy from people who play a game, from people who verbally committed to the effort. The only misnomer in that situation is that courtesy from people playing THIS game is not at all common.

Sorry Pally.

For those of you who don't understand, Pally's story is an example of the difference between "progression" minded guilds and "casual" guilds. For those of you who think like Gutter, the story is an example of why the "elite" guilds don't want your casual asses.

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Where's an example of someone presumably in an elite guild once again making himself look like a complete ass? Oh, never mind- I quoted it.

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Cawlin posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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You expect real life, business type responsibility, from people playing a game....

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Wrong. She expected common courtesy from people who play a game, from people who verbally committed to the effort. The only misnomer in that situation is that courtesy from people playing THIS game is not at all common.

Sorry Pally.

For those of you who don't understand, Pally's story is an example of the difference between "progression" minded guilds and "casual" guilds. For those of you who think like Gutter, the story is an example of why the "elite" guilds don't want your casual asses.

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Cawlin posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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You expect real life, business type responsibility, from people playing a game....

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Wrong. She expected common courtesy from people who play a game, from people who verbally committed to the effort. The only misnomer in that situation is that courtesy from people playing THIS game is not at all common.

Sorry Pally.

For those of you who don't understand, Pally's story is an example of the difference between "progression" minded guilds and "casual" guilds. For those of you who think like Gutter, the story is an example of why the "elite" guilds don't want your casual asses.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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You expect real life, business type responsibility, from people playing a game....

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Wrong. She expected common courtesy from people who play a game, from people who verbally committed to the effort. The only misnomer in that situation is that courtesy from people playing THIS game is not at all common.

Sorry Pally.

For those of you who don't understand, Pally's story is an example of the difference between "progression" minded guilds and "casual" guilds. For those of you who think like Gutter, the story is an example of why the "elite" guilds don't want your casual asses.

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Yah but Cawlin, they didn't progress, anymore than a "casual" guild didn't progress.


I'm going to bow out while pointing to her statement about NOT going on successful pug runs, in order to be free for the guild.


The pugs made it, she didn't.


So, we have casual PUGs, doing better than a progression guild, on WRATH's 3 year old content....

I'll stick with the pugs that get the job done, you keep your elitist guild, Cawlin.

/chuckle

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GutterSludge posted:

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ok Kryv, but are you going to go ballistic if someone doesn't show?


If you do, then are these people really your friends, or are you just concerned about what they can do for you?

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GutterSludge posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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You expect real life, business type responsibility, from people playing a game....

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Wrong. She expected common courtesy from people who play a game, from people who verbally committed to the effort. The only misnomer in that situation is that courtesy from people playing THIS game is not at all common.

Sorry Pally.

For those of you who don't understand, Pally's story is an example of the difference between "progression" minded guilds and "casual" guilds. For those of you who think like Gutter, the story is an example of why the "elite" guilds don't want your casual asses.

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Yah but Cawlin, they didn't progress, anymore than a "casual" guild didn't progress.


I'm going to bow out while pointing to her statement about NOT going on successful pug runs, in order to be free for the guild.


The pugs made it, she didn't.


So, we have casual PUGs, doing better than a progression guild, on WRATH's 3 year old content....

I'll stick with the pugs that get the job done, you keep your elitist guild, Cawlin.

/chuckle

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PallyDog posted:

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So what do you do? I don't want to be a guild hopper. Every guild has the same problems. So...basically I accept the fact that there are certain guildies who are not trust worthy, who won't put in the time, and can't be counted on to show up even if they hit confirm on an invite. And I do my own raids. Not guild raids. But committed player raids. The sad part is I set up my own 25m run and I have a couple guildies drop becuase Iw oudln't carry a new lvl 80 on an ICC 25m. I mean come on.

So I am not excited for Cata. I don't care to play tomorrow unless it's to turn horde and kill the bastards who let me down. I wasted patience, gold, time, frustration, commitment, on them. I chose to help them out because they said they wanted to get it done. And they dropped out.

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PallyDog posted:

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PallyDog posted:

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Yes, please feel to post QQ more. I'll get over it.

I have been invited to a few rusted drake runs, PUG's but they were successful. Amazing isn't it? Howeve, I saved my lock out for my guild, especially since I set up the raid. We spent weeks working on the Rusted Drake. I spent well over 1k g in repairs. Now I wouldn't complain about repairs if I hadn't busted my butt redoing achieves people had missed. I wouldn't even mention repairs if I hadn't been the only one who was there for every single raid. I asked people straight up, are you committed to getting this done? "Oh yeah! we're so close! We can do this!" Didn't happen. One achieve away from. Because we spent so much time dicking around for no shows or screw ups we took several extra weeks so we were left with the hardest boss for last with the least amount of time. I stayed by my guild for loyalty sake and got screwed. Yes, I am less than happy. Especially since this is not a first time experience. However it is one that does have a lasting effect in that, no rusted drake.

So what do you do? I don't want to be a guild hopper. Every guild has the same problems. So...basically I accept the fact that there are certain guildies who are not trust worthy, who won't put in the time, and can't be counted on to show up even if they hit confirm on an invite. And I do my own raids. Not guild raids. But committed player raids. The sad part is I set up my own 25m run and I have a couple guildies drop becuase Iw oudln't carry a new lvl 80 on an ICC 25m. I mean come on.

So I am not excited for Cata. I don't care to play tomorrow unless it's to turn horde and kill the bastards who let me down. I wasted patience, gold, time, frustration, commitment, on them. I chose to help them out because they said they wanted to get it done. And they dropped out.

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GutterSludge posted:

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I digress..

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GutterSludge posted:

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If it isn't fun, don't friggin do it, Period.

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Auenwing posted:

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And yes, "fun" means different things to different people.

And WoW is diverse enough to accomodate those.


I am happy with what works for me, and accept what works for others.

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Cawlin posted:

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My remarks are about courtesy. My remarks have nothing at all to do with what PuGs can accomplish vs. organized progression minded guilds.

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Cawlin posted:

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The fact that you refuse to see the truth of this Gutter reflects your lack of tolerance for play styles different than your own.

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Cawlin posted:

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Troll moar nub.

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Cawlin posted:

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Get this through your thick fkn skull:

For some people playing this game, fast progress through PvE content is fun. Raiding with like-minded individuals that they speak to day-in and day-out in vent is fun.

Sure didn't seem fun for Pally in this thread, ehh?

For some people, organizing their game time is fun.

Sure seemed like a waste of time for Pally in this thread, ehh?

For some people, group accomplishments and the planning, setup, and the entire process of cultivating a group of like-minded individuals committed to a goal is fun.

Sure didn't seem that way for Pally in this thread, ehh?

For some people, raiding with scrubs who show up or don't based on the direction the wind is blowing, who may or may not drop after they get or don't get the item they're raiding for isn't fun.

Wait a second..these are your guild members you are speaking of...what happened to being courteous??? Oh, I see...you say one thing, but in the heat of the moment your true colors shine through. It isn't about courtesy after all...its about...

YOU. Just like I said.

The sooner you learn to accept that people like playing with like-minded people, the better off you'll be.

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Gutter,

You admit to being in Pally's situation many times before, I don't think during that time you didn't think of those MMO's as any more then a game, yet you still expirienced frustration and stress.

See when you tell people, "It's just a game get over it." It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Anything that you do for liesure you still invest a certain amount of time into. I don't know about you but any time any of my time is wasted, even liesure time, that frustrates me.

I think most of us know that WoW is just a game and has no impact on our real daily lives. That doesn't mean a dungeon wipe won't frustrate you, or someone ninja'ing a need role, ect ect ect.

Gutter I'm actually similar to you in the sense that I am very good at compartmentalizing, I rarely get frustrated over anything at all, game or not, when something happends I re-analyze the situation and move on. Not everyone is like that though, and it is perfectly normal to get frustrated even when just playing a game.

It actually works both ways. Those who invest more into the game then others, are more frustrated or diapointed when things don't go right, however they also get more fulfillment from ingame achievments. That counts for something, we are all playing this game for enjoyment, if you don't ever get mad at something ingame, it is hard to imagine you ever getting that happy either..

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GutterSludge posted:

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Gutter,

You admit to being in Pally's situation many times before, I don't think during that time you didn't think of those MMO's as any more then a game, yet you still expirienced frustration and stress.

See when you tell people, "It's just a game get over it." It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Anything that you do for liesure you still invest a certain amount of time into. I don't know about you but any time any of my time is wasted, even liesure time, that frustrates me.

I think most of us know that WoW is just a game and has no impact on our real daily lives. That doesn't mean a dungeon wipe won't frustrate you, or someone ninja'ing a need role, ect ect ect.

Gutter I'm actually similar to you in the sense that I am very good at compartmentalizing, I rarely get frustrated over anything at all, game or not, when something happends I re-analyze the situation and move on. Not everyone is like that though, and it is perfectly normal to get frustrated even when just playing a game.

It actually works both ways. Those who invest more into the game then others, are more frustrated or diapointed when things don't go right, however they also get more fulfillment from ingame achievments. That counts for something, we are all playing this game for enjoyment, if you don't ever get mad at something ingame, it is hard to imagine you ever getting that happy either..

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Syrus, I have not experienced one second of stress since starting WOW. Not one iota.

Wasting "waste-able" time is not frustrating to me. It is what the entire game is..fun time.

I never said I dont put time in. I have 7 80's, 6 of which are right at or above 6k gs in PVE gear, + full pvp armor. You see, rather than stand around cussing at the "scrub" guildmate that couldnt make the raid, I am out actually doing something. I get plenty of fulfillment from my playtime, without the stress.

While the raiders are theorycrafting, and stroking each others e-peens at the town mailbox, I'm going 1 vs 4 somewhere in the world, or running randoms, or logging out, because I have other things to do.

Bottom line is, I do what I want, when I want, how I want, and have a total blast in the process.

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Yeah I get it, it's a game and it is fun. Bottom line though, if your group is approaching the last boss in a dungeon and then some hunter aggro's to separate groups with his pet because he didn't have it on passive and wipes the group, then your tank gets frustrated and leaves so you end up not completing the dungeon, that is frustrating, I don't care who you are. If you deny that then you are trolling.

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Auenwing posted:

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Ah, Gutter, that wasn't an attack at you ( I don't think you took it that way. ) Thanks for explaining where you're at and why.

I can understand how you'd get there. It IS a hobby, go play for fun.

Love my guild. Don't know what I would do without them. Sometimes, though, I just need some space. At different points, all of us in our guild do, and we happily allow it, without demands.

(edit: "allow" doesn't mean getting permission, it means accepting reality.)

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GutterSludge posted:

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Yeah I get it, it's a game and it is fun. Bottom line though, if your group is approaching the last boss in a dungeon and then some hunter aggro's to separate groups with his pet because he didn't have it on passive and wipes the group, then your tank gets frustrated and leaves so you end up not completing the dungeon, that is frustrating, I don't care who you are. If you deny that then you are trolling.

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No, it actually isn't. If you are on the last boss, then you will not get the debuff for leaving.

No loot? No different than losing the roll, IF a piece you could use actually dropped.


It's all about how you look at things, Syrus.

You played AC, right? How many perfect weapons did you blow up, going for those imbues? Not crap, mind you, but absolutely flawless?
Did this frustrate you? Or did you just look at it from an "odds" sense, and that the more you blow up, the better the odds the next one won't?

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GutterSludge posted:

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Or did you just look at it from an "odds" sense, and that the more you blow up, the better the odds the next one won't?

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siujoey posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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Or did you just look at it from an "odds" sense, and that the more you blow up, the better the odds the next one won't?

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Actually, previous attempts have no influence over future attempts. :-) I couldn't resist.

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Malachi256 posted:

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This is why I usually don't raid. It's where the game crosses the line from casual, fun, GAME to 2nd job.

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siujoey posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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Or did you just look at it from an "odds" sense, and that the more you blow up, the better the odds the next one won't?

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Actually, previous attempts have no influence over future attempts. :-) I couldn't resist.

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Malachi256 posted:

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This is why I usually don't raid. It's where the game crosses the line from casual, fun, GAME to 2nd job.

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Doesn't have to be that way though, it is all about how you run it. I would be surprised if anyone in my guild felt like raiding with them was like a 2nd job.

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siujoey posted:

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The actual raiding never felt like a job to me. It was just the responsibility of making raid times, planning other things around it, etc. I am like Gutter, if my guild has a raid going when I happen to get on, feel like running it at that time, and know I have the time to do it- I will go. But I never ever sign up for the raids because I can't (and won't) commit to being there for the exact reasons in Pally's post. If I say I am going to be there, I will be there.

It's different for everyone. Personally, when I get home from work, I hate feeling like there are things that I have to do. I don't want to have to be ready for a raid at a specific time, no thanks. Sometimes I don't even know which toon I am going to play until I hit the selection screen. If I am doing BGs on my little noob mage and having fun, I would be annoyed if I have to log off for an 80 so I can make a raid because I have to maintain a certain % attendance to raids. Screw that. Not my thing.

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GutterSludge posted:

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If it's about courtesy, how bout showing courtesy and understanding to the people who couldn't make it.

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PallyDog posted:

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Couldn't make it? How about wouldn't make it. Most of htem could make it and decided to play on an alt or they were tired and gonna log and played for 3 more hours instead.

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PallyDog posted:

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My point was let someone know. doens't take that long to log in send an mail and say "Can't make it tonight, sorry" or even "I don't feel like it tonight" rather than the excuses and BS. It's not that hard to remove yourself from the calendar. With real ID and vent and in game mail it's super easy to let someone know you're not making it.

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PallyDog posted:

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It's jsut courteous to keep you commitments and if you can't or something changes, it's just courteous to let someone know in advance. I didn't chew anyone out for not showing up, I didn't go postal on anyone, I jsut said" Ok, NP we'll find someone else. Thanks for letting me know."

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PallyDog posted:

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I did want to reach through the screen and punch a few people and smash cat poo into their keybaords but I restrained the impulse. That wouldn't be nice would it?

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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I'll keep this short because my wait to get back into the server is almost done.

Pally, I completely understand. The question you need to ask yourself is: Am I willing to risk being in the guild where this behavior will continue for X, Y, Z benefits because the behavior will continue? Or, am I willing to hurt potential feelings from friends or otherwise because I need to remove a frustrating situation in order to continue to have fun?

When you make that choice, you'll know what to do.

At the end of the day, VN poster judgements aside, you still have to do what's right for you.

Still just a game after all.

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