Iarwin posted:

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Are all these people using the DF all newly minted 80's that slug through 80 levels solo? How can they suck this bad?

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huldu posted:

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The problem is with the players in WoW, ie you. Once a month or two has passed it should be easier.

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Iarwin posted:

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What I don't understand is how did everyone get so awful at this game? It's not a hard game. You really almost have to try to suck at it.

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siujoey posted:

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This seems like it might come as a surprise to all of you judging by the responses so far, but..... there are LOTS and LOTS of players that couldn't possibly care less if they are "good".

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siujoey posted:

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This seems like it might come as a surprise to all of you judging by the responses so far, but..... there are LOTS and LOTS of players that couldn't possibly care less if they are "good".

My girlfriend plays her warlock, her only toon, sparingly. She prefers quests, mostly because of people that expect everyone to know their class inside and out and play accordingly. She just doesn't care. Hell, sometimes she just spams immo because she likes the animation. It's fun for her to run around and kill things and complete quests or see a new dungeon, etc. Will she ever top a dps chart? Certainly not.

The point is: not everyone plays to be the best (insert class here). Some people play because it is fun and gives them a break for a little while. The elitist attitude is the primary reason WOW has such a pathetic community.

Next time you are in a group with someone who is terrible, maybe give them a constructive tip. If they take it and run with it, maybe give a couple more. If they blow it off and don't improve- it may just be that they realize it is a game and are doing what is fun for them. The sun will still rise tomorrow.... I promise.

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Arcilite_I posted:

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siujoey posted:

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This seems like it might come as a surprise to all of you judging by the responses so far, but..... there are LOTS and LOTS of players that couldn't possibly care less if they are "good".

---

My advice for those people:

Unsub, go back to single player games, where easy mode is the only friend needed

If you insist on playing a multiplayer game, at least have the courtesy of not queueing or grouping for anything ever

Thanks

---

-Mithan- posted:

---

I don't care how people play alone but when they come into a Group Situation, their performance has a direct impact on the group and all members of the group.  Likewise, the attitude of the experienced players matters as well, sometimes much more than one weak player.

People don't need to be the best player in the world in order to Group, however out of respect and common courtesy for the other people in the group, they should at a minimum, come prepared to learn/improve their skills. 

Obviously, the more experienced people in the group should recipricate and not be assholes and offer that help in as kindly a way as possible. 



I have no issue with somebody learning. 
I have issues with the people who have no idea what they are doing and who instantly dig in and refuse all help and in the process hurt the group.
I also have issues with joe-superstar that thinks the group should be going Mach10 and acts like a retard in his attempts to "quicken the group".

For the former, I have no problem going slower and taking double or triple the time to do an instance and wiping a dozen times.
For the two laters, I just dont have the patients anymore and either leave or kick them. 

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_Warlucky_ posted:

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There is no I in Team or Group for that matter.

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Spookysheep posted:

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Arcilite_I posted:

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siujoey posted:

---

This seems like it might come as a surprise to all of you judging by the responses so far, but..... there are LOTS and LOTS of players that couldn't possibly care less if they are "good".

---

My advice for those people:

Unsub, go back to single player games, where easy mode is the only friend needed

If you insist on playing a multiplayer game, at least have the courtesy of not queueing or grouping for anything ever

Thanks

---

^^

This.


If someone wishes to be a delicate, unique little snowflake and "play how they want", then they at least should be group with others and ruin everyone elses game experience with their badness. They can suck at single player games without disturbing the rest of us.

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_Warlucky_ posted:

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There is no I in Team or Group for that matter.

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--Syrus-- posted:

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_Warlucky_ posted:

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There is no I in Team or Group for that matter.

---

But there is a U in group, and if U break CC and U wipe the group because U could care less if U are a good player or not, then it is U I will be vote kicking. Thank U.

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Iarwin posted:

---

What I don't understand is how did everyone get so awful at this game? It's not a hard game. You really almost have to try to suck at it.

Did people just regress after WOTLK came out? I missed the whole expansion as it just didn't appeal to me and I've only been back for a month. The first thing I noticed was how ridiculously easy the heroics where and how easy it was to gear up for raiding (which no one is really doing anymore). The second thing I noticed, was how bad most people are. Did all the people that knew what they were doing get bored and quit? Are all these people using the DF all newly minted 80's that slug through 80 levels solo? How can they suck this bad?

---

-Peo- posted:

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Iarwin posted:

---

What I don't understand is how did everyone get so awful at this game? It's not a hard game. You really almost have to try to suck at it.

Did people just regress after WOTLK came out? I missed the whole expansion as it just didn't appeal to me and I've only been back for a month. The first thing I noticed was how ridiculously easy the heroics where and how easy it was to gear up for raiding (which no one is really doing anymore). The second thing I noticed, was how bad most people are. Did all the people that knew what they were doing get bored and quit? Are all these people using the DF all newly minted 80's that slug through 80 levels solo? How can they suck this bad?

---

It is very simple. With the way vote kicking and leaving dungeons early works, you are FORCED to play with terribly bad players. The people who suck badly get all the perks in the world, they aren't punished for their bad play. You can kick one, then you kick timer shoots to 30 minutes and you cannot boot the next retard you get in your group. You can leave a bad group, but then you get a 30 minute debuff where you cannot queue again. Blizzard rewards bad players by forcing the good ones to put up with bullshit. If you SUCK at your class, you SHOULD be removed from the group until you learn to fricking play your class. If you don't like it, don't queue and ruin 4 other peoples day. If you don't like it, stop being so bad.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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I read this thread, its responses, and a word I haven't heard in years popped into my head: elitest.

Let's keep it real, gentlemen. Blizzard doesn't care about your group, guild, or skill at gameplay.

They care about the greenback.

And as long as that speaks loudest, you'll see the game cator to that section of gamer.

It's World of Warcraft . . . not Cyber Olympics. No one is praising anyone's skill here or anywhere else besides you.

If players suck that badly, remove them from the group and don't group with them again.

Life will carry on.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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Please point out where I mention you directly. Seriously, do I need to preface my responses with 'overall'? If you're not guilty, quit being so defensive about all my posts.

Jesus.

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GutterSludge posted:

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If the RDF is soooooooo friggin bad...

make your own "pro" 5-man groups, and walk to the dungeon....

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Cawlin posted:

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Spookysheep posted:

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Arcilite_I posted:

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[quote=siujoey]This seems like it might come as a surprise to all of you judging by the responses so far, but..... there are LOTS and LOTS of players that couldn't possibly care less if they are "good".

---

My advice for those people:

Unsub, go back to single player games, where easy mode is the only friend needed

If you insist on playing a multiplayer game, at least have the courtesy of not queueing or grouping for anything ever

Thanks

---

^^

This.


If someone wishes to be a delicate, unique little snowflake and "play how they want", then they at least should be group with others and ruin everyone elses game experience with their badness. They can suck at single player games without disturbing the rest of us.

---

GutterSludge posted:

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If the RDF is soooooooo friggin bad...

make your own "pro" 5-man groups, and walk to the dungeon....

Of course, you get no bonus points for this.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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And the best solution remains to only run pre-made guild/friend groups with people you know and who are trying to do their best.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Nice way to completely ignore my point (let's just cut one part of a sentence out of the whole post so we change its meaning, typical gutter trolling), along with another great "do what I say, not what I do" example, but coming from gutter, I'm not surprised.

In your post, YOU are culprit of exactly what you accuse me of... since YOU don't know me, at all. So you basically critic yourself in that post... since you seem very quick at making broad assumptions about people you never met in game.

But WE, although, know your attitude towards grouping since a long time, since it's yourself who brag about your antisocial behavior in this game regularly here. We don't invent a thing, it's not assumptions, it's you bragging that you behave like an antisocial person in game, and being proud about that behavior. So when you try to lecture people, don't wonder when they don't take you seriously.

But your trolling doesn't impress me, gutter - please keep on displaying your ignorance and your hypocrisy so I can keep laughing

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GutterSludge posted:

---

Yah, Korrigan..keep on thinking that you are the only person to ever see any dungeon content, participate in a 5 man, and that your way is the only way.

Keep on thinking that WOW is hard, and that you are the only person who can do it.

Keep on thinking that players who don't do exactly what you expect them to do are less of a player than you.

Keep on making yourself look like an arse every time you post with your elitist, holier then thou attitude...and keep hiding inside your precious guild...refusing to expose yourself to outside players...which is more anti-social than I have ever been.

... the rest of us will just keep on laughing at you, and your total lack of comprehension to what really goes on in this game.

---

Arcilite_I posted:

---

siujoey posted:

---

This seems like it might come as a surprise to all of you judging by the responses so far, but..... there are LOTS and LOTS of players that couldn't possibly care less if they are "good".

---

My advice for those people:

Unsub, go back to single player games, where easy mode is the only friend needed

If you insist on playing a multiplayer game, at least have the courtesy of not queueing or grouping for anything ever

Thanks

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

Read the relevant post history..its all there..repeatedly..

What is really going to burn Korrigan up is when pugs are doing just as well as his guild...and this entire thread is a moot point.

---

GutterSludge posted:

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What is really going to burn Korrigan up is when pugs are doing just as well as his guild...and this entire thread is a moot point.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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I won't answer to the assumptions you made (once again) about me,

---

Ardenwolfe posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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Read the relevant post history..its all there..repeatedly..

What is really going to burn Korrigan up is when pugs are doing just as well as his guild...and this entire thread is a moot point.

---

Again assumptions.

---

GutterSludge posted:

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... when pugs are doing just as well as his guild...and this entire thread is a moot point.

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slythetove posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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... when pugs are doing just as well as his guild...and this entire thread is a moot point.

---

If that were only the case.

Do you actually believe that? If so, have you pugged using the random dungeon finder? I wish I shared your optimism.

Sadly, I think all this will actually result in is that I no longer use the dungeon finder until the population somehow outgears the content significantly, because I don't want to pull my hair out and smash my monitor daily.

--Sly

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GutterSludge posted:

---

Again, with your "WOW is hard, and only guilds can do it"....

---

GutterSludge posted:

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No one but your guild can do anything. We know. (chuckle)

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GutterSludge posted:

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Who is more anti-social? People in PUG's, meeting people from all kinds of different servers? Or someone such as yourself, who hides in his/her own little world, ignorant to the other 11,999,900 people that play this game?

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GutterSludge posted:

---

Time will prove you wrong, and I will be there to laugh AT you.

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Cawlin posted:

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slythetove posted:

---

GutterSludge posted:

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... when pugs are doing just as well as his guild...and this entire thread is a moot point.

---

If that were only the case.

Do you actually believe that? If so, have you pugged using the random dungeon finder? I wish I shared your optimism.

Sadly, I think all this will actually result in is that I no longer use the dungeon finder until the population somehow outgears the content significantly, because I don't want to pull my hair out and smash my monitor daily.

--Sly

---

This.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to forget how it was to run things when you were geared at the level appropriate for the content.

It's not that it was "hard", or even that it took "a guild" to do it, but because you didn't overgear the sh*t out of the content, party members had to actually play... like a group. You couldn't just beast everything with the only risk being hurting your arm patting yourself on the back for chain pulling.

---

Malachi256 posted:

---

What bothers me at least a little bit is that Bliz has how many thousands of quests in the game... and yet none of them seem to be designed to train someone to play their class properly in a 5-man setting. It's arguably the first moderately difficult thing to do in the game (the only remotely hard part of leveling is soloing group content, that sort of thing...) and they just let people dive right into the deep end. I guess they expect the playerbase to do the training, which is a trial by fire at best.

Simple class specific quests like forcing a mage to keep one super-mob sheeped (who, if not sheeped, will approach the mage and eat him alive) while killing a stream of weaker adds. Generic "tank" quests available to any of the tank classes that involve using taunts in a proper fashion, switching targets, when to AE and when not to, etc.

Obviously, many people didn't have much trouble figuring out how to use all their class abilities effectively... but it can definitely be said that many people HAVE had trouble figuring these things out. Quests that focused on broadening people's abilities with their class could be fun and productive. I guess it's easier said than done.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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It's exactly that what's gonna happen.

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Cawlin posted:

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Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to forget how it was to run things when you were geared at the level appropriate for the content.

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Cawlin posted:

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slythetove posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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... when pugs are doing just as well as his guild...and this entire thread is a moot point.

---

If that were only the case.

Do you actually believe that? If so, have you pugged using the random dungeon finder? I wish I shared your optimism.

Sadly, I think all this will actually result in is that I no longer use the dungeon finder until the population somehow outgears the content significantly, because I don't want to pull my hair out and smash my monitor daily.

--Sly

---

This.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to forget how it was to run things when you were geared at the level appropriate for the content.

It's not that it was "hard", or even that it took "a guild" to do it, but because you didn't overgear the sh*t out of the content, party members had to actually play... like a group. You couldn't just beast everything with the only risk being hurting your arm patting yourself on the back for chain pulling.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Thank you for making my point for me.

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

You are almost caught up,

You will eventually realize that Korrigan's opinion is the only one that matters, and everyone who might say different is a tool, troll, and cannot possibly know what they are talking about.

Hang in there..it is quite humorous.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Hang around the board long enough, and you will see for yourself.

Like I said, you are almost caught up.

It isn't an insult, its just the truth.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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Hang around the board long enough, and you will see for yourself.

Like I said, you are almost caught up.

It isn't an insult, its just the truth.

---

1. I've been on VN longer than you.
2. I've known the people and the various posters here longer than you.
3. I can read between the lines better than you.

You need to catch up, son.

Opinion does not make it truth. No matter how you shake, stretch, swirl, or twirl it, your opinion and your e-peen doesn't make it bigger or more truthful.

It just makes it your perception.

Don't talk down to me. I'll embarrass you. I'm not nice like Auenwing.

---

Ardenwolfe posted:

---

A wiser man than you once said on these very boards, "When a poster needs to display laughter and/or LOLs as a response, it means his position in a debate is so weak, he has no other options," or words to that effect.

---

Ardenwolfe posted:

---

But, let me spell it out for you.

I offered you a chance to validate your position. Instead, you chose to repeat your diatribe.

Again, I offered you a chance to clarify in a more professional manner. I even offered an example on how to do it. And what did you do? You repeated yourself and decided to talk down to me.

And now, here we are with the lols and personal insults.

---

Ardenwolfe posted:

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You have no position. In fact, you don't even have a clue. You're here to get into a pissing contest with Korrigan.

Fact.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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Now, you can call me all the colorful names you like,

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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You can try to laugh it off. No doubt. But this display is nothing more than you thrashing about like a child.

So, please, back up your opinion or kindly be quiet.

Your choice.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Pugs will dominate Cata.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Edit: the ONLY thing you are "better" at than anyone on this board, appears to be blowing sugar up Korrigan's arse...good job! You win at that!!

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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You're not very good at this. If you want to contradict a point, you need to make sure you're not talking out your rear.

GutterSludge posted:

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Edit: the ONLY thing you are "better" at than anyone on this board, appears to be blowing sugar up Korrigan's arse...good job! You win at that!!

---

This is an insult. A personal, and implied, insult. An incorrect one, but that's another topic for another thread.

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--Syrus-- posted:

---

Just a little story to add to the thread here, I have not been following these recent arguments, but earlier we mentioned what we expect out of our PuG's and so on and it was suggested rather then treat bad players poorly or kick them from our groups to just give them tips here and there to help make them better players.

It was also pointed out to us that some players just don't care to be better players at all.

I mentioned as well that even the smallest "tip" given to most players results in belligerent rudeness. Here is a prime example.

I was tanking Wailing Caverns with my new pally. I had a rogue in the group who obviously did not understand the concept of a tank in a group, after each pull he would just run forward into the next group and start attacking.

For the most part I could keep up with him, so I just threw my avengers shield in there as he was running up each time and made sure to take aggro from him. At this point I had decided not to bother saying anything, what he was doing was making the healers job a little harder, but I didn't think it would result in a wipe so I left it alone.

At one point the rogue ran off in the opposite direction not paying attention to where the group was headed and started attacking his own mob. Well because the rest of the group followed me including the healer he died. At this point I felt bad for the guy so I decided to take the advice given to me here and give this guy a friendly tip.

I said "Hey man, it would make it easier on you if you just let me tank the mobs."

He responded "Meaning?"
At this point I gave him the benefit of the doubt and actually thought he didn't know what I meant by me tanking.

"Let me take all the damage, that's my job, just attack the mobs that I'm attacking and you won't take any damage."

"You don't do shit. Shut up. Just go."

See what I mean? These are the types we are talking about. Why group with people if you don't care to be part of a team at all? His play style didn't change at all, I had to make sure and keep up with him and continue to pull mobs off of him that he would go after on his own.

At the point in Wailing Caverns where you have to jump that small small little gap.. he fell down took him a good 5 minutes to find his way back to the group.

I'm trying to take the advice of some of the people on this forum and not boot these players lest I be labeled "elistest" but I really don't think these players will learn either way.

---

steveC91 posted:

---

Arcilite_I posted:

---

siujoey posted:

---

This seems like it might come as a surprise to all of you judging by the responses so far, but..... there are LOTS and LOTS of players that couldn't possibly care less if they are "good".

---

My advice for those people:

Unsub, go back to single player games, where easy mode is the only friend needed

If you insist on playing a multiplayer game, at least have the courtesy of not queueing or grouping for anything ever

Thanks

---

For those of us who play for fun we relish having someone like you in our group and we get worse on purpose
But usualy I find some friends just as bad and we have fun wiping a lot

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

Syrus, seriously...

how many pugs total, before you get one person like this?

10?
20?
50?
100?


Honest answer now..and I fully realize that some days are better than others...

---

--Syrus-- posted:

---

I didn't even bother saying anything to these healers but If I did I am 90% sure what kind of response I'd get.

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

Read the post immediately prior to when I said that.

That was not an insult. It was a response to an attempted insult, spewed by you.


BTW I don't have to connect the dots, since you admittedly are so apt at reading between the lines..


Kepp trying though, in a year or two you might be able to hang with me...but I seriously doubt it.

---

--Syrus-- posted:

---

Just a little story to add to the thread here, I have not been following these recent arguments, but earlier we mentioned what we expect out of our PuG's and so on and it was suggested rather then treat bad players poorly or kick them from our groups to just give them tips here and there to help make them better players.

It was also pointed out to us that some players just don't care to be better players at all.

---

--Syrus-- posted:

---

The player was a bit worse then normal, his attitude though wasn't. As stated above it wouldn't be a stretch to say 1 and 5. It may be less common for you because you just suck it up and don't say anything to these people. All the power to ya.

In this case I wasn't even saying anything to scold the guy, but I knew for sure the next PuG he is in it going to tear him a new one so I thought I would take a stab at it.

I ran two BFD's last night, in both instances I had healers who were more focused on DPS then they were on healing me. They would wait until I was at around 30% health to even through a renew or bubble. I was mostly in charge of healing myself through holy power and only if I couldn't keep up that way would I start seeing heals.

I died on the murloc boss because of this because he DPS's like a mofo.

I didn't even bother saying anything to these healers but If I did I am 90% sure what kind of response I'd get.

---

Grimlik posted:

---

This post could have been made back in WoW vanilla as well.

I expect there will be some adjustments needing to be made. Generally though my experience with the DF has been positive. Of the last 50 or so runs I have made only 2 have been bad.

I think it will be very interesting to see how the current player base handles the back to old school system.

---

Ardenwolfe posted:

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

Read the post immediately prior to when I said that.

That was not an insult. It was a response to an attempted insult, spewed by you.


BTW I don't have to connect the dots, since you admittedly are so apt at reading between the lines..


Kepp trying though, in a year or two you might be able to hang with me...but I seriously doubt it.

---

You don't think before you respond to anything, do you? Because almost everything you say lacks common sense and attempts to disguise your lack thereof.

Hang with you?

This is like watching a one-legged man in a butt-kicking contest.

Let me tell you something: If I insult you, you'll know. You'll be so damn sure you won't even have to ask the question.

In order to 'hang with you', I'd have to step down to the basement. I'll freely admit, I know I make more than a few posters uncomfortable, perhaps even annoy them, but I'll guess not one of them can say you articulate a point or discussion better than me.

You can't counterpoint in a debate. You can't remove your ego from the discussion. And, hell, you can't even pretend to try.

So, ask yourself, was it worth this embarrasment to be called out like this?

By the way, that's rhetorical.

Look it up.

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

--Syrus-- posted:

---

The player was a bit worse then normal, his attitude though wasn't. As stated above it wouldn't be a stretch to say 1 and 5. It may be less common for you because you just suck it up and don't say anything to these people. All the power to ya.

In this case I wasn't even saying anything to scold the guy, but I knew for sure the next PuG he is in it going to tear him a new one so I thought I would take a stab at it.

I ran two BFD's last night, in both instances I had healers who were more focused on DPS then they were on healing me. They would wait until I was at around 30% health to even through a renew or bubble. I was mostly in charge of healing myself through holy power and only if I couldn't keep up that way would I start seeing heals.

I died on the murloc boss because of this because he DPS's like a mofo.

I didn't even bother saying anything to these healers but If I did I am 90% sure what kind of response I'd get.

---

I hear yah. This is also much more prevalent at the lower levels, when the mobs usually aren't powerful enough to one shot anyone wearing heirlooms..

I know for the entire stretch of Wrath with the DF available, I ran all 6 of my 80's at least through one random a day, every day. Whichever one I felt like running more I would, and that varied from day to day, but at minumum 6 per day.

In that entire time span, I only came across ONE player (at 80) like the one you described who just showed his ass to the point that we booted him. Were there poor players in groups? of course. Undergeared? Of course. Mentally deficient? Probably a few..But only one booted for pure attitude. (I NEVER vote to kick someone for poor DPS, or any other reason for that matter)


On the flipside, this behavior was very common recently when leveling another warrior tank, again especially at the low levels. Funny coincidence that in my experiences, it was almost always rogues ...so I just let them tank it if they pulled it, and I would go pull a different mob, or set. Funny how the healer usually makes the right choice on "which tank to heal"...followed by the death of said rogue.

Just roll with it, have fun, and don't let that ONE guy overshadow the other 29 players that you have had no problem with that day...

This happens way to much on these boards, as people only focus on the one "less than optimal" experience, and forget the 1,000 that were incident free.

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

Sorry, did you say something?

I wasn't listening..


/chuckle

---

GutterSludge posted:

---

Keep in mind also Jared, that right now, we have overgeared players, running through dungeons they have run 600 times.


They didn't become overgeared by just showing up to the RDF once a week, and add to that the fact that they are still running dungeons after 600 trips..


They played, learned, and mastered the content.


I think the rude awakening is going to be reserved for those who think and assume that these same players are incapable of doing it all over again.

---

siujoey posted:

---

The elitist attitude is the primary reason WOW has such a pathetic community.

---

Cawlin posted:

---

The bottom line is that you run into a fair number of people in the PuG world who could benefit from advice, and the vast majority of them are completely unwilling to take that advice, but are completely willing to be carried.

...

It's fun helping someone out with advice or instruction and watching them "get it" and all of a sudden start playing better and being a real asset (or at least pulling their weight) in a group. It's not fun compensating for people who aren't willing to take instruction or listening to their inanity.

---

Boone-Eldar posted:

---

I have been pugging almost exclusively since WotLK came out and will continue to do so in Cata. I have achieved a Kingslayer title and collected a full set of 251/264 gear during that time. I have run every single Heroic 5 man countless times in pugs and logged hundreds of hours doing so.

Frankly I think a lot of what is being stated here in this thread is gross exaggeration.

I very, very rarely run into completely incompetent players. Most are average and do what they are supposed to do. I can count on 1 hand how many times in the hundreds of hours I have spent pugging that I have not been able to finish an instance due to a Tank or Healer being so bad that we could not finish. Have there been a few DPS who were not very good? Sure but who cares. I helped carry them through an instance. Big deal.

I now am leveling a Tank and it is even easier. I can carry pretty much the rest of the group as long as I get a couple heals here and there. Heck I did 63% of the total damage done yesterday in one pug. Big deal. We finished. I got the quests done I wanted and moved on.

Some of you people need to get over yourselves. You aren't in some world first guild pushing Heroic raid content. You are an above average player at best most likely. I guess putting down people who are more casual than you are makes you feel better about yourself.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Jared, I said they will START on day one, because of the RDF...

In every other expansion, everyone quested on day one, and very very few actually hit a dungeon.


The times they are a changin'

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Boone-Eldar posted:

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I have achieved a Kingslayer title and collected a full set of 251/264 gear during that time.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Boone-Eldar posted:

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I have achieved a Kingslayer title and collected a full set of 251/264 gear during that time.

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If you pretend you got kingslayer with a random PUG raid made of random people you never played with before, I mean, you were just like "let's make a PUG today, get totally random people, some of which don't even know the tactics of most ICC bosses, and kill the Lich King", then I'm gonna be forced to call you a liar.

Now if you pretend you geared up several chars by facerolling easy 5 man dungeons with PUGs, then I believe you.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Boone-Eldar posted:

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I have achieved a Kingslayer title and collected a full set of 251/264 gear during that time.

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If you pretend you got kingslayer with a random PUG raid made of random people you never played with before, I mean, you were just like "let's make a PUG today, get totally random people, some of which don't even know the tactics of most ICC bosses, and kill the Lich King", then I'm gonna be forced to call you a liar.

Now if you pretend you geared up several chars by facerolling easy 5 man dungeons with PUGs, then I believe you.

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--Syrus-- posted:

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There are more and more ICC PUGs coming out. Right now there are a lot of raiding guilds who have just stopped raiding with Cata so close. Those raiders are Pugging with other players. So I mean it isn't a PuG in the sense that the first 25 people that send a tell go on the raid, but they put the PuG together just as if they were putting it together in their guild.

It is still more challenging because you don't know these players or their play styles, you may wipe a few more times then usual but you can get it done.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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In fairytales, when you kiss a frog, it becomes a beautiful princess/prince.
But only in fairytales.

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Boone-Eldar posted:

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Ohh I get it now. You are one of those guys who thinks because he did some heroic raid content in WotLK that you are one of the "elite" players.

Hint: WotLK raid content is a joke. Even casual progression guilds got to 10/12 Heroic ICC before they stopped caring, none of which would have finished SSC or TK, much less Hyjal or BT in TBC and wouldn't have gotten through BWL, much less sniffed the first boss of AQ or Naxx in Vanilla.

I doubt you have your Hand of Adal title and you probably did not enter AQ or Naxx in Vanilla. IE you are not the elite player you think you are.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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If you ever spot a DK with a "Hand of Adal" title, please ring me. Because I want to see it too, and possibly take a screenshot.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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I've stopped raiding in vanilla after clearing AQ40 because of real life and time constraints (moving and changing job, making my own company).

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The_Korrigan posted:

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That's also why I barely raided in TBC, real life was always >>> WoW for me.

I've also chosen to come back to raiding but focus only on 25 man content in WotLK for the same reasons. Difficulty and being casual has nothing to do with it - it's all about being with a good guild. When you were still wiping on Putricide, we were clearing 11/12 heroic (up to sindragosa) in one evening, starting 20:30 and ending midnight. Yet we aren't elite, I agree - we didn't get the heroic LK 25, and our casual status indeed came into the way for that, notably the summer and its load of AFK people.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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But you're welcome to spew more nonsense, toad princess. Difference between you and me - for me, you can check what I did in my signature, and I don't brag about doing things I've never done, or facerolling ICC with a PUG - for you, gutter, and others, it's only words in the wind.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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But pretending PUGs do just as fine as organized guilds which members play together each week and know each other well, that is complete nonsense. A guild will clear content and have it on farm status a PUG will start dropping several months later, if not more. Stop telling us fairytales, be realistic.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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You possibly confuse AQ40 with vanilla Naxxramas.

For the rest, you actually pretty much agree with me. Thanks for that.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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You also nicely (troll method) skipped the parts of my post that are annoying for you, like the part where I explain I've been doing PUGs during whole TBC

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Boone-Eldar posted:

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The Eye of Cthun was the last boss in AQ40, the raid instance before Naxx 40. It was essentially unkillable for most of Vanilla.

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Boone-Eldar posted:

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I don't care why you don't have your Hand of Adal title or why you were never in Naxx 40 so why would I quote and reply about it? It's not annoying to me in the least lol.

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Malachi256 posted:

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/sigh

The problem is this:

Heroics were originally created to be challenging 5-man content. Something for people who couldn't or wouldn't raid, but still liked playing more difficult content with a small group of friends.

Then somewhere along the way, through the constant nerfs during BC and then the entire paradigm shift of WotLK, heroics became the new normals (and basically a required stepping stone for raiding, assuming the rest of your guild wasn't already geared up and carrying you), and normals became for leveling only. WotLK heroics are even easier than vanilla normals were, although this is as much because of gear inflation as anything.

So we've lost the original intent of the heroic.

If Cataclysm continues to treat heroics as normals, and a required stepping stone to get into raiding, then there will likely be problems. People will feel forced to do these heroics even if they, or the random people they are grouped up with, can't really handle the content. Normals will continue to go largely unused at end-game.

As someone who hardly ever raids, but loves 5-man content, this is very disappointing. I wish the people who just wanted to gear up for raiding could do so in normals, and heroics could be seen as a tangential path for people who like "hard mode" 5-mans. Perhaps this is possible in Cataclysm, I don't know - I haven't looked at the gear reqs for entry level raids at all. Nonetheless, I know what the mindset of people going into Cataclysm will be.

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--Syrus-- posted:

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A real good group can 4 man any 5 man dungeon. Exception players with decent gear can even 3 man. Fights take a lot longer but it can be done.

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Auenwing posted:

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Because in the end, that's their focus. 5-mans, I think, will always been seen as a stepping stone, now more than ever, because of how successful they were in LK.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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--Syrus-- posted:

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A real good group can 4 man any 5 man dungeon. Exception players with decent gear can even 3 man. Fights take a lot longer but it can be done.

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You can actually, as a tank (paladin and DK at least), solo most heroics except the 3 latest LK ones, and even some of those have apparently been soloed. I facerolled HoL not too long ago, out of boredom. A good indication of the difficulty of WotLK 5 man dungeon...

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--Syrus-- posted:

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If you are such a good player, why are you playing with all these baddies? If you were trying to PuG 40 man raids in Vanilla no wonder you don't remember it with fondess. If you are a good player you should be able to get in a good raiding guild to complete the content.

Again if you are talking about 5 man's, you should still be able to complete the content even if there are a few bad players in your group.

You sound like a very anti social player, playing a very social game. If you want to play a game where you don't depend on anyone, stick to the solo content, or play a single player game. Or again, join a good guild. Bad players don't plauge me. I litterally ran more then 10 5 mans last night, all of the runs had a least one bad player. I went through a instance where I was both tanking and healing myself. Wasn't a great expirience, but we still got it done.

A real good group can 4 man any 5 man dungeon. Exception players with decent gear can even 3 man. Fights take a lot longer but it can be done.

For all the boasting you do about your individual skill it sounds to me like you don't enjoy a challenge. For me facerolling a dungeon is not fun. I've actually nodded off while healing some dungeons with my Shammy.

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Auenwing posted:

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The_Korrigan posted:

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--Syrus-- posted:

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A real good group can 4 man any 5 man dungeon. Exception players with decent gear can even 3 man. Fights take a lot longer but it can be done.

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You can actually, as a tank (paladin and DK at least), solo most heroics except the 3 latest LK ones, and even some of those have apparently been soloed. I facerolled HoL not too long ago, out of boredom. A good indication of the difficulty of WotLK 5 man dungeon...

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Yup. Solo, or 1 player 2-boxing can do almost all of them (except the 3 ICCs/ToC). A real good group can 4 man dungeons at level any where in WoW (been that way from vanilla.) And yes, you can 4-man HoR (whoopiedodah)

Gearcheck =/= difficulty.

It's a gearcheck.

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Malachi256 posted:

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Auenwing posted:

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Because in the end, that's their focus. 5-mans, I think, will always been seen as a stepping stone, now more than ever, because of how successful they were in LK.

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Before I'm off to work, just wanted to throw out something - I appreciate the well thought out post =)

I think the original "dungeon 2" set is good evidence that, at least at some point, Bliz thought of 5-man content as end-game content for at least some of their playerbase. The dungeon 2 set was a rather complex series of quests involving lots of 5-man content that resulted in a very nice 8-piece set (half epic, half blue, if I remember correctly). I never heard of anyone who talked about it being required to get into raiding - most of the vanilla raids had already been chugging along for quite a while when it was implemented. It was entirely to appease people who just loved 5 mans or couldn't get into raiding.

There's no doubt, though, that Bliz would love for everyone to get into raiding. Raiding provides the social hook that keeps people playing for a long time, and the gear reward rate (combined with the limited number of runs per subscription month), is their end-game cash-cow for sure.

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Bad players don't plauge me. I litterally ran more then 10 5 mans last night, all of the runs had a least one bad player. I went through a instance where I was both tanking and healing myself. Wasn't a great expirience, but we still got it done.

A real good group can 4 man any 5 man dungeon. Exception players with decent gear can even 3 man. Fights take a lot longer but it can be done.

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Auenwing posted:

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I hear that. Except I'm not sure (now) what the original intent of 5-mans was supposed to be.

And I'm still not sure that Blizzard sees 5-man as a legit separate playstyle.

I think Blizz just sees them as a means to an end to get more players into raiding. (They'll LIKE raiding, if they would just TRY it!) I think the fact that there is a portion of the player base that prefers 5-man is incidental to Blizz's long-term goal. And those players are making it their endgame in spite of Blizz's intent.

(On the other hand, I've had less than 2 hours sleep, so I could totally be blowing smoke here. I'm willing to take my lumps if my thinking's not clear. )

I'm not sure that I can go back and definitively say that 5-mans were put into the game by intent to be an end-game for those that couldn't / wouldn't raid. I think Blizzard was probably surprised by the success of Dire Maul at a time when "Raid or Die" was Kaplan's agenda. I think they've always been seen as the progression-hook to raiding.

So in TBC, they put in more (which were definitely challenging walking in with greens/blues). Once again, demonstrating that the instances themselves were not particularly hard, it was the glass-wall created by lack of gear. Once properly geared, those instances were moderately easy, leading to the model of AoE-style fests we see in LK. Blizz found however, that a lot of the player base was not doing them (putting in the faction-key barrier was a great speed bump idea on paper, and not smart in the end.) However, they did provide a progression path to places like Kara, once again, it seems, with the thought of herding the playerbase into what they considered the only true end-game: raiding. 5-mans were the place players spent a long time grinding to get into, then grinding through for gear (speedbumps), before moving on the real target: Kara and beyond.

(Do note, however, that in TBC, Blizz got the 5-man and 10-man gearchecks "backwards". As originally released, some of the 5-man heroics required Kara gear which is what made them feel like endgame.) They corrected that progression in LK, by "oversteering" the other way.

So, realizing that players WOULD grind through 5-mans as a way to gear up, Blizz then swung the pendulum the other way in LK, making it incredibly easy to walk through the regulars as a leveling playground, and, as you said, turning the Heroics into a way to easily obtain gear to be able to progress toward 10-man raiding, and hopefully drawing more and more players in, sheparding them towards raiding. In LK, it became incredibly efficient for guilds to send players through to get their gear without having to run individuals through themselves. (Yay for DF). 5-mans were once again, a means to an end.

For all that I've said Blizz has been inclusive about the diversity of playstyle out here, it sure seems that they are still focused on getting more players into raiding. Only this time, instead of berating them (a la Kaplan in Vanilla), they may still be assuming that it is lack of proper gear, not incentive, that keeps players out of raiding. So they've consistently lowered the barriers to acquiring gear to the point that heroics have become an easy-regular-feel AoE-fun-run in LK.

The fact that the DF makes it eaiser and more players are actually enjoying them is probably, again, incidental. And yes, there are more ICC-10 and 25 PuGs which would only validate Blizz's perspective that everybody wants to raid. So they are providing more paths to get there easier.


So, yes, I hear you and your concerns. I love 5-mans as a playstyle as well.

BLizz has heard is that 5-mans are too easy now and are swinging the pendulum the other way, at least temporarily. And will probably, as many have cautioned, be adjusted down to allow more cattle, er players, through the gear-chute on the way to raiding.

Because in the end, that's their focus. 5-mans, I think, will always been seen as a stepping stone, now more than ever, because of how successful they were in LK.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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It's a check of both.

I agree for the soloing part, it's mostly a gear check (and knowing how to spec/play your spec, of course). But for the other parts, "skilled" players (as in, players "attuned" with their characters, and playing together as a team) will clear the content when random chaotic players will wipe thinking it's impossible.

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Cawlin posted:

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Here's what people have to learn to do to manage pretty much all WoW content as it is and as it will ever be:

Go read the OP of this thread and follow that

Yes it's that simple. Yes it will be that hard for a large percentage of the game's population.

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Cawlin posted:

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Because you understand paper and pencil RPGs Auenwing (AD&D at least if I recall), I will respond to your post with this analogy:

I believe that 5-mans were intended at least in part, to be like little stepping stones in the STORY too (not just the gearing and L2P progression). I believe this is like the way the old AD&D campaigns were designed to some extent with modules (individual adventures tuned for a certain number of players in a given level band) which then progress towards a story and "ultimate" confrontation type of climax e.g. Keep on the Borderlands - to Against the Giants series - to the Drow and Demonweb Pits series - culminating with battle against Lolth the Spider God.

Granted the analogy is not clean and there are divergences in the game but at least in my mind, I see the 5-mans as also telling the story at least partway. Not all 5-mans are part of the story, some are story arcs of their own, but I like them as part of the story anyway - yes they're gear providers now too, but I believe the original intention was to provide true content in terms of the story, not just in terms of "content to have something to do".

Meh, that's my "deep thought" for the day I guess lol.

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Auenwing posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Because you understand paper and pencil RPGs Auenwing (AD&D at least if I recall), I will respond to your post with this analogy:

I believe that 5-mans were intended at least in part, to be like little stepping stones in the STORY too (not just the gearing and L2P progression). I believe this is like the way the old AD&D campaigns were designed to some extent with modules (individual adventures tuned for a certain number of players in a given level band) which then progress towards a story and "ultimate" confrontation type of climax e.g. Keep on the Borderlands - to Against the Giants series - to the Drow and Demonweb Pits series - culminating with battle against Lolth the Spider God.

Granted the analogy is not clean and there are divergences in the game but at least in my mind, I see the 5-mans as also telling the story at least partway. Not all 5-mans are part of the story, some are story arcs of their own, but I like them as part of the story anyway - yes they're gear providers now too, but I believe the original intention was to provide true content in terms of the story, not just in terms of "content to have something to do".

Meh, that's my "deep thought" for the day I guess lol.

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Interesting perspective I had not considered, thank you!

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slythetove posted:

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Bad players don't plauge me. I litterally ran more then 10 5 mans last night, all of the runs had a least one bad player. I went through a instance where I was both tanking and healing myself. Wasn't a great expirience, but we still got it done.

A real good group can 4 man any 5 man dungeon. Exception players with decent gear can even 3 man. Fights take a lot longer but it can be done.

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I should have picked this out separately. It kind of makes my point even though you intended it to refute my point.

You admit that you had bad players in ever group. Yes, currently you can still finish the content. We agree so far. I 2 manned a boss in H HoR in a fight lasting over 15 minutes while 3 dead party members watched and cheered for us. It was fun.

My whole point is, I fear from what I have heard that in Cata that one bad player will cause you to be unable to complete the content. That's what worries me.

--Sly

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--Syrus-- posted:

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slythetove posted:

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Bad players don't plauge me. I litterally ran more then 10 5 mans last night, all of the runs had a least one bad player. I went through a instance where I was both tanking and healing myself. Wasn't a great expirience, but we still got it done.

A real good group can 4 man any 5 man dungeon. Exception players with decent gear can even 3 man. Fights take a lot longer but it can be done.

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I should have picked this out separately. It kind of makes my point even though you intended it to refute my point.

You admit that you had bad players in ever group. Yes, currently you can still finish the content. We agree so far. I 2 manned a boss in H HoR in a fight lasting over 15 minutes while 3 dead party members watched and cheered for us. It was fun.

My whole point is, I fear from what I have heard that in Cata that one bad player will cause you to be unable to complete the content. That's what worries me.

--Sly

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Ah I see. ( I did read both posts just didn't quote it.)

This makes a lot of sense, I was reading your post from my game perspective and didn't realise how different yours was. I see where you are coming from now.

It still sounds to me though that it is the players that are most of your problem and not the content.

As for your worry that one bad player will cause a dungeon fail, I just don't see that happening. I don't thinkt he change wil be that drastic. They are saying they are going to bring some challenge back to the game, less AoE more CC, ect. They are not saying WoW will be harder then ever before.

I think it is going to be more like when we ran 10 and 15 man UBRS. Where you around back then? I mean it wasn't impossible but if you broke CC you got taken down pretty quick, wouldn't always mean a wipe, but it wasn't as forgiving as dungeons are now.

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slythetove posted:

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I truly hope to be surprised and find PuGs still succeeding.

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