pattongb posted:

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^^^ LOL Ouch.

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Flesh_Wound posted:

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FFA does not work in the large scale.

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Auenwing posted:

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....because we all know how well it worked for Andred and Mordred. <straightface>

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TinMan52 posted:

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I actually thought FFA was the only redeeming quality of AoC. I'd love to see FFA in WoW.

I basically grew up as a MMO player on Eonar/Arygos and was anti-PvP for everything. Once I actually tried a PvP server in WoW and a FFA server in AoC, it wasn't so bad and even quite enjoyable at times.

Personally, I'm tired of the two faction MMO paradigm. If SC could implement 3 factions and WC3 could implement 4 factions in an RTS, why can't a Blizzard MMO move beyond 2 factions?

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djcline posted:

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The problem is all the customization they'd have to do for it to work. I don't understand all the hate from other players over this but I do understand why blizzard isn't exactly jumping up and down to make it happen.

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Okra posted:

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on the flip side, how about a co-op server? 

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Okra posted:

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on the flip side, how about a co-op server? 

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Cawlin posted:

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I wish WoW had a FFA server.

That way all the real miscreants and other people that make MMOs a drag for me would perhaps go there. Of course they'd be back in a month or two when they got bored of griefing each other, but at least it would be a month without them and we could put this stupid, ridiculous argument to rest.

Perhaps WoW is big enough now that the very small percentage of MMO players who would enjoy an environment like that would warrant a FFA server for it. Blizzard should do it and let those clowns put their money where their mouths are and shut them up for good.

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Arunne posted:

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Okra posted:

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on the flip side, how about a co-op server?

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Aren't all non PvP servers really just coop servers?


I mean look at dalaran, aren't we all just one big happy family?

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_Warlucky_ posted:

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I am pretty sure Cat will be the last expansion for WOW so maybe in another year the will latch onto this idea to keep interest up for the dozen or so people that would be interested.

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_Warlucky_ posted:

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I am pretty sure Cat will be the last expansion for WOW so maybe in another year the will latch onto this idea to keep interest up for the dozen or so people that would be interested.

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pattongb posted:

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Right.

Some of you have it right. Let us so called "griefers" go and be on our own server. That removes us from your care.

Whats it gonna cost Blizzard to add one more server to its monumental list of servers? Practically nothing relatively speaking.

So why not?

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_Warlucky_ posted:

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I am pretty sure Cat will be the last expansion for WOW so maybe in another year the will latch onto this idea to keep interest up for the dozen or so people that would be interested.

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Alpha_Swift posted:

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_Warlucky_ posted:

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I am pretty sure Cat will be the last expansion for WOW so maybe in another year the will latch onto this idea to keep interest up for the dozen or so people that would be interested.

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lol, ya I heard Blizzard decided to stop making money.

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jojo263 posted:

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Alpha_Swift posted:

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_Warlucky_ posted:

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I am pretty sure Cat will be the last expansion for WOW so maybe in another year the will latch onto this idea to keep interest up for the dozen or so people that would be interested.

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lol, ya I heard Blizzard decided to stop making money.

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Yes because not making another xpac for WoW means blizzard isn't working on anything else.

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Fedup23 posted:

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jojo263 posted:

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Alpha_Swift posted:

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[quote=_Warlucky_]I am pretty sure Cat will be the last expansion for WOW so maybe in another year the will latch onto this idea to keep interest up for the dozen or so people that would be interested.

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lol, ya I heard Blizzard decided to stop making money.

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Yes because not making another xpac for WoW means blizzard isn't working on anything else.

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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For the TLDR crowd: Not all FFA PvPers are dicks, WoW FFA PvP server would not hurt you and some of us want it.

The claims that all people in favor of FFA PvP are jerks and griefers is about as fair as the generalization that all PvEers are role-playing, lonely proto-nerds that need to kills some dragons on the internet for socialization.

Many of us on Darktide, and in other FFA PvP situations (shadowbane, AoC, while they lasted etc), are Antis that oppose RPKers. Its a more thrilling and authentic PvP experience when you choose to get along with your friends, and give battle to your enemies. Forced and incontrovertible faction loyalty can cause its own form of grief. Tell me true, have you NEVER wanted to roll the trade channel champs, or that guy that totally stole your titanium ore? I like FFA, and I play wow on a PvP server, but I won't kill you if you don't give me a reason. I'm not alone. The presence of douchebags in WoW is ubiquitous. A lot of people on a FFA server would kill you on sight, with a song in their hearts. If that doesn't life your luggage, don't get on the plane! I for one like hunting those little pricks. Frontier justice.

As to the problems of implementation, FFA PvP code already exists ala the gurubashi arena and ring of blood, etc.

All the older MMO historians are pointing to Mordred, and thats fair. But it should be remembered: At its height, did DAOC even reach 1 million subs? WoW is enormous and might have enough interest in it (how could I know for sure?). IF there is, a WoW FFAPvP server would be pretty cool imo. DAoC also offered the best world pvp that imo the genre has ever seen, so that splintered the interest (which was already well established with Mordred came out).

As to balance concerns, I can only laugh. Blizzard and ghostcrawler seem so oblivious to solutions to the problems that already exist I can't see adding one FFA server (that I would be fine with them ignoring, just laissez-fair style 'here it is, player beware) making trouble.

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jojo263 posted:

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Fedup23 posted:

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jojo263 posted:

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[quote=Alpha_Swift][quote=_Warlucky_]I am pretty sure Cat will be the last expansion for WOW so maybe in another year the will latch onto this idea to keep interest up for the dozen or so people that would be interested.

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lol, ya I heard Blizzard decided to stop making money.

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Yes because not making another xpac for WoW means blizzard isn't working on anything else.

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-Peo- posted:

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Go pull the wings off of flies for your jerk fix, problem solved.

All FFA does is cater to jerks.

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jojo263 posted:

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Yeah if you scroll up you would see I wasn't the one who said there wont be another xpac.

I just don't understand why people think blizzard would go under without WoW.

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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For the TLDR crowd:



and did I mention

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Rill_of_WE posted:

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Ugh the only time I EVER tried darktide

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-Peo- posted:

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All FFA does is cater to jerks.

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Slors posted:

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^^ I think just more experienced/older gamers

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Foojo posted:

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Slors posted:

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^^ I think just more experienced/older gamers

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I always find it amusing how the FFA crowd considers itself always step above the rest of players, e.g. "experienced/older gamers".

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The_Korrigan posted:

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FFA players for most look more like a mix of kindergarten rejects and mental asylum escapees to me, but whatever... one has just to read the darktide forums to see what I mean.

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Slors posted:

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^^ I think just more experienced/older gamers who have actually been around more than just wow would like the option. hell for our 20mill subs we give them or w/e they're up to now i think having a few more options really shouldn't even need to be asked for.

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-Peo- posted:

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Holy crap, I almost died, people actually saw worth in what I posted and didn't belittle me.

Wait a minute.

*squints and looks around*

Where am I? This can't be VN...

Auen, ty, I thought it quite apropos.

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-Peo- posted:

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It used to bother me alot, the amount of douchebaggery here, now, when it bothers me, I just leave the board. Which I am sure is what management wants, amiright? The sad part is, this board can still give me information about the game, whoever runs the bot actually does a pretty decent job, but the rest, bleh.

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Ugh_Lancelot posted:

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To that end, Blizzard appears to be attempting "meaningful negative feedback" with their new battle.net forums. It should be interesting watching that experiment.

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-Peo- posted:

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Slors posted:

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^^ I think just more experienced/older gamers who have actually been around more than just wow would like the option. hell for our 20mill subs we give them or w/e they're up to now i think having a few more options really shouldn't even need to be asked for.

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And I think you are wildly mistaken. Its the 20something mentality of getting a rush out of ruining another person's day. Plain and simple. There isn't enough positive reinforcement in the world. So the up and coming generation has learned to get its attention by behaving badly, putting people down, getting a chuckle out of upsetting someone and thinking that they somehow "won" if the other person gets mad. This board is a perfect microcosm of the behavior. I call it lolumad syndrome.

The worst part is, it is infectious and almost everyone shrugs off bad behavior by saying things like "get a thicker skin". It isn't about the thickness of ones skin, that is a deflection of the real issue, which is people behaving like a$$holes and then rationalizing it away or making excuses. Which, of course, starts to boil over into taking responsiblity for ones action, another thing that almost no one does anymore. It is a convoluted, complex problem with society, but I am sure I will be mocked and the things I said will be picked apart with the myriad of excuses that people come up with these days.

When really, you should behave like a decent person in the 1st place.

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Exodus_The_Mage posted:

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* Fishing tournament (particularly, on PvP servers). Make anyone that participate in the tournament as FFA. On most PvP servers today, people are already forming small group to protect the participant, and also kill the opponent from opposite factions. Adding FFA elements will allow even more PvP actions to take place.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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I must admit, I didn't believe this thread would show any merit. But, it made those most guilty of the behavior Peo and Korr describe indirectly self-identify.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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When your position is so weak that you need to retort with personal attacks or general name calling to disagree, you make Peo's earlier point.

The problem is, much like an FFA devolves into, the general scenario results in the player who only cares about their concerns, feelings, or desires.

To hell with the rest.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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That's why, again in general, FFA servers don't work: it does become griefing.

And when that behavior happens on a discussion board, we call that trolling.

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GutterSludge posted:

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If you are one of the mentally defective, then you really should not comment on this thread. Leave this thread for the people with thick skin, who realize that a death is a death is a death, and is just all in the course of a day in the life on a PVP server.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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It's the "kindergarten courtyard hero" syndrome all over again, as I said recently in another thread.
Those guys seem think they are some kind of heroes here, rebels (without a cause), "real men", and they have a small clan of supporters too among which some members of this site's management. Of course, then it's easier to get away with their trolling and douchebag attitude.
Some fun things to do is to use their own weapons against them. When they reap what they sow, their reactions are always priceless and childishly stupid.

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poster posted:

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WoW needs a FFA Server

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siujoey posted:

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Gutter is right. (Did I just say that?) Characterizing an entire group of players as griefers for the style of play they enjoy is pigheaded and ignorant. His analogy of 9/11 and muslims is right on. That's a major problem in this country. And come to think of it, I would rather be considered a "kindergarten courtyard hero" than judgmental and self righteous. Ignorance is no excuse for bigotry and generalizations.

Edit: To clarify, I would probably not play on an FFA server if they introduced one. I just refuse to characterize the people that would like one as angst-ridden teens looking for someone to grief. And I certainly wouldn't say it in one sentence while stating the need for decency and fairness in the next.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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siujoey posted:

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Gutter is right. (Did I just say that?) Characterizing an entire group of players as griefers for the style of play they enjoy is pigheaded and ignorant. His analogy of 9/11 and muslims is right on. That's a major problem in this country. And come to think of it, I would rather be considered a "kindergarten courtyard hero" than judgmental and self righteous. Ignorance is no excuse for bigotry and generalizations.

Edit: To clarify, I would probably not play on an FFA server if they introduced one. I just refuse to characterize the people that would like one as angst-ridden teens looking for someone to grief. And I certainly wouldn't say it in one sentence while stating the need for decency and fairness in the next.

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Actually, he's wrong and here's why: he's guilty of the very behavior he would have those who disagree with his point.

To the point, he just characterized those in disagreement as pigheaded, ignorant, jugmental, and self-righteous. In fact, he even goes as far as to use 9/11 and muslims in comparison.

Excuse me?

The problem with blanket statements that scattershot like this is while them may land on their mark most of the time, they are wildly miss and point out the absence of validity.

I'm muslim.

And your argument's point just made you look like a complete fool.

Keep politics out of this.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Trolls, unite!

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Trolls, unite!

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That and the fact they feel the need to defend themselves after Peo's spot on analogy.

If they had any sense at all, they would've remained quiet. But, that requires common sense and zero sense of guilt.

Again, happy they self-identified themselves since even they know they're trolls.

And we need the thicker skin . . .

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--Syrus-- posted:

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The lol factor in this thread just went up. I think I'll stay tuned.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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siujoey posted:

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Gutter is right. (Did I just say that?) Characterizing an entire group of players as griefers for the style of play they enjoy is pigheaded and ignorant. His analogy of 9/11 and muslims is right on. That's a major problem in this country. And come to think of it, I would rather be considered a "kindergarten courtyard hero" than judgmental and self righteous. Ignorance is no excuse for bigotry and generalizations.

Edit: To clarify, I would probably not play on an FFA server if they introduced one. I just refuse to characterize the people that would like one as angst-ridden teens looking for someone to grief. And I certainly wouldn't say it in one sentence while stating the need for decency and fairness in the next.

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Actually, he's wrong and here's why: he's guilty of the very behavior he would have those who disagree with his point.

To the point, he just characterized those in disagreement as pigheaded, ignorant, judgmental, and self-righteous. In fact, he even goes as far as to use 9/11 and muslims in comparison.

Excuse me?

The problem with blanket statements that scattershot like this is while them may land on their mark most of the time, they may wildly miss and point out the absence of validity.

I'm muslim.

And your argument's example just made you look like a complete fool.

Keep politics out of this.

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--Syrus-- posted:

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You know what is worse then a Troll that knows he is a Troll?

A troll that doesn't..

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siujoey posted:

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Actually, you are mixing quotes from two different people. Gutter and I will never be on the same page as far as griefing goes, we've been down that road before.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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--Syrus-- posted:

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You know what is worse then a Troll that knows he is a Troll?

A troll that doesn't..

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An Internet troll would respond with something like, "Oh look. It's Arc little minion come to back and butt-snorkel him some more. That's so cute."

That's trolling.

Instead, since you believe me a troll--albeit an indirect opinion--I recommend you do the following:

1. Don't quote me.
2. Don't respond to me.
3. Don't give me any attention.

You ignore trolls as Peo demonstrates like a master. That's how you deal with those individuals.

Sorry you feel that way, Syrus, but I trust this will be the last time you respond to me.

And as far as calling or labeling anyone a troll, that's the irony. No where in this thread did anyone, anywhere, name anyone a troll directly.

Those that responded to it, again defensively and indirectly, identified themselves. If you don't feel guilty of it, you won't feel the need to respond to that allegation since it wouldn't apply.

Really that simple.

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Some Irony huh? You've told me before that you blieve me a troll yet you still felt the need to respond to me. You act like your above throwing back trolling insults by saying what a troll would say, yet you still say it. Do you think that just because you're putting it quotes its not coming from you? How comical.

So you responded to my post, trolled me yourself by insulting me and then you go on to say that people shouldn't be responding to trolls which you did.

You also said that trolls that feel guilty about it feel the need to respond and self identify, which is exactly what you did as well. Very nice. Thank you for clearing that up.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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The problem with blanket statements that scattershot like this is while them may land on their mark most of the time, they may wildly miss and point out the absence of validity.

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-Peo- posted:

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Go pull the wings off of flies for your jerk fix, problem solved.

All FFA does is cater to jerks.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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FFA players for most look more like a mix of kindergarten rejects and mental asylum escapees to me, but whatever...

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-Peo- posted:

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And I think you are wildly mistaken. Its the 20something mentality of getting a rush out of ruining another person's day. Plain and simple.

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Shenron_ posted:

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its just a winner vs sore loser debate. like people whining about the awp in counterstrike or about spawn camping, etc. they can't win unless they make up their own set of rules so they try to force others to follow them.

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--Syrus-- posted:

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So you responded to my post, trolled me yourself by insulting me and then you go on to say that people shouldn't be responding to trolls which you did.

You also said that trolls that feel guilty about it feel the need to respond and self identify, which is exactly what you did as well. Very nice. Thank you for clearing that up.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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There's validity there.

The problem is when you encounter the player who will kill you over and over again when the victim has no chance. Let's say the opposing players have a twenty level difference between them.

Also, take into account, the player who simply wants to play the game, yet can't due to this situation.

It's part of the reason I finally left Aion. Granted, I knew it was a PvP game, but it eventually turned into a gank/zerg-fest with gear and level difference so vast you needed a suspension bridge to cross it.

I believe that's the biggest problem people have with a Free-for-All server.

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Shenron_ posted:

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but i never trash talk or even emote spam enemies or anything like that. on the contrary it is often the sore losers who try to emote spam me or log on a level 1 to try to trash talk me, etc.

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GutterSludge posted:

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I agree 100%. All of these point out the absence of validity through the ignorance of gross generalizations.

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Trolls, unite!

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That and the fact they feel the need to defend themselves after Peo's spot on analogy.

If they had any sense at all, they would've remained quiet. But, that requires common sense and zero sense of guilt.

Again, happy they self-identified themselves since even they know they're trolls.

And we need the thicker skin . . .

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You know what is worse then a Troll that knows he is a Troll?

A troll that doesn't..

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siujoey posted:

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Shenron_ posted:

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but i never trash talk or even emote spam enemies or anything like that. on the contrary it is often the sore losers who try to emote spam me or log on a level 1 to try to trash talk me, etc.

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Completely unrelated, but I love emote spam from players in BG's while losing horribly. Since I am alliance, it is usually my teammates doing it. Yesterday, I had one moron emote spamming while sitting on the road between stables and lumber mill while we were in the process of getting 5-capped. Way to go jackass, thanks for making us all look like idiots.....

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Auenwing posted:

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/rose-colored glasses

Ah, the bygone days in DAoC when you'd salute a fallen enemy because you respected his fighting ability....

Anybody else miss that?


Oh. Sorry for the interrupt. Carry on the FFA-fest here.

/salute

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Ugh_Lancelot posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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I agree 100%. All of these point out the absence of validity through the ignorance of gross generalizations.

---

Refusing to see the nuance of an opponent's argument is no less an error than over-generalizing, in addition to making you look churlish when followed by ad-hominem insults. Nobody's saying FFA servers don't work at all, just that FFA servers tend to suck up far too many resources for their limited positive benefits to overcome from a business perspective. Arguably, this could be overcome with creative development and if anyone can do it, Blizzard should be able to.

But we were having an argument between FFA goons and mental defectives, right? Sorry to derail things.

[edit]Yes, I see what I did, there.

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Some Irony huh? You've told me before that you blieve me a troll yet you still felt the need to respond to me. You act like your above throwing back trolling insults by saying what a troll would say, yet you still say it. Do you think that just because you're putting it quotes its not coming from you? How comical.

So you responded to my post, trolled me yourself by insulting me and then you go on to say that people shouldn't be responding to trolls which you did.

You also said that trolls that feel guilty about it feel the need to respond and self identify, which is exactly what you did as well. Very nice. Thank you for clearing that up.

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No friend, I'm giving you what you're giving me. Perhaps, you would like to identify who you actually meant with your 'troll' comment then? Someone else maybe?

Like I said before, if you don't believe it true and you think I'm a troll, just don't respond.

I actually don't think you're a troll. I think you're caught up in the 'I'll be cool too' clique you decided to join.

When you make valid arguments and discussion, I respond in kind with what you give if you recall from earlier threads. But, when you respond like you did in this thread, you'll get it right back.

As Korr stated, you don't like it when your tactics are used against you.

I know this will fall on deaf ears, but I hope one day like Peo realized, you're not doing yourself any favors.

And I'll treat you with the respect you deserve.

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TinMan52 posted:

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Personally, I'm tired of the two faction MMO paradigm. If SC could implement 3 factions and WC3 could implement 4 factions in an RTS, why can't a Blizzard MMO move beyond 2 factions?

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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The problem is when you encounter the player who will kill you over and over again when the victim has no chance. Let's say the opposing players have a twenty level difference between them.

Also, take into account, the player who simply wants to play the game, yet can't due to this situation.

It's part of the reason I finally left Aion. Granted, I knew it was a PvP game, but it eventually turned into a gank/zerg-fest with gear and level difference so vast you needed a suspension bridge to cross it.

I believe that's the biggest problem people have with a Free-for-All server.

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Broken_Kayfabe posted:

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I don't get this. If that's the biggest problem people have with a FFA server... wtf are they playing on it for???

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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People hate the free-for-all idea because they've encountered too many bastards in their limited PvP experiences.

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Arcilite_I posted:

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There is a SINGLE solution to every statement made here against FFA PvP, stop being a pretentious [tos_quoted violation] and make some friends.

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siujoey posted:

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There you go again, speaking for the masses. What you need to say is: "in MY limited PvP experiences...." You know why that is? Because as soon as the zones are PvP, you are out of there. So the only time you ever have PvP experiences is..... against your will!! Gee, I wonder why you would hate FFA?

No one said it was for everyone, but stop assuming that either A)everyone has the same view of it as you do, or B) they are wrong or inexperienced.

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Would you guys still want a FFA server if there was some sort of death penalty? With out that you arn't true FFA'ers

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GutterSludge posted:

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Yet you play on a PVE realm.

More astute commentary from yet another PVE player.


/chuckle

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--Syrus-- posted:

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Would you guys still want a FFA server if there was some sort of death penalty? With out that you arn't true FFA'ers

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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Finally, your argument is deeply flawed because you believe a vocal minority speaks for a vast majority.

Let's use common sense.

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siujoey posted:

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Yes, let's. It doesn't matter what the "vast majority" wants, only enough people for it to be profitable. Is that the case? I have no idea. I believe I stated I probably wouldn't play on an FFA server again, I am just not as small minded as to characterize everyone that does as a certain type of person.

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siujoey posted:

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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Finally, your argument is deeply flawed because you believe a vocal minority speaks for a vast majority.

Let's use common sense.

---

Yes, let's. It doesn't matter what the "vast majority" wants, only enough people for it to be profitable. Is that the case? I have no idea. I believe I stated I probably wouldn't play on an FFA server again, I am just not as small minded as to characterize everyone that does as a certain type of person.

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kyrv posted:

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siujoey posted:

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Ardenwolfe posted:

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Finally, your argument is deeply flawed because you believe a vocal minority speaks for a vast majority.

Let's use common sense.

---

Yes, let's. It doesn't matter what the "vast majority" wants, only enough people for it to be profitable. Is that the case? I have no idea. I believe I stated I probably wouldn't play on an FFA server again, I am just not as small minded as to characterize everyone that does as a certain type of person.

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I think WoW is profitable.

In Azeroth, a murderer of allies and same race would be jailed for life or executed. Why have a server where everyone is killed off or in jail?

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